I was recently in Mexico and 3 different places asked us directly for positive reviews in exchange for free food/drinks. This made me reconsider how I use Google Maps for finding places to eat and stay. You basically have to rely on the 2-star and 4-star reviews to filter out a) the lunatics and b) the shills.
That's the truth, there are whole agencies specializing in removing bad reviews in Germany. The laws are really skewed against consumers in this respect.
I was looking for a gym and went to several, multiple times, paying outrageous amounts for single visits. Then I reviewed them on Google. None of my reviews survived the "defamation" steamroller.
I guess soon we'll be like Chinese people, inventing parables to say the truth without getting censored. "This was an amazing gym for a relaxing afternoon of crowd watching", or "I very thoroughly enjoyed the company of my friends while waiting for food in this restaurant, it also left me with an overrwhelming lightness in both my stomach and my wallet"...
> This all started for me about three years ago, when I left a Google review for a doctor saying I felt discriminated against. Shortly after, I got slapped with a legal threat demanding €40,000 in damages. I ended up settling and paying €1,000 in legal fees just to avoid the nightmare of going to court. That was my wake-up call—but back then, I thought it was an edge case.
Sounds like you need an anti-slapp law[1], I did a quick google and it looks like one is in the works[2] but not implemented yet. Given your experience it seem unlikely anything is currently in place, of if there is it does not give much protection.
Sounds interesting. When I told the case I had to my lawyer friends from the US, they laughed and said it would be funny to have such a case there. So we definitely need something like that.
Trust me 1-Star-Drive-By Reviews by "customers" without any merit are just as bad for businesses.
So, congrats. You've basically discovered that online review systems suck. Look at app stores. Look at Amazon product reviews. It's all being gamed and manipulated and abused. Google obviously won't moderate any of this because there's no substantial business value.
> This all started for me about three years ago, when I left a Google review for a doctor saying I felt discriminated against. Shortly after, I got slapped with a legal threat demanding €40,000 in damages. I ended up settling and paying €1,000 in legal fees just to avoid the nightmare of going to court.
They can force you to court over a google review?!
Exactly, and at that time I was naive to put my (only first name) name on Google, as it is my only account. And they figured it out from their patients' records and sued me.
I've seen this several times in Google maps, the business owner finds out who the client is (gym, doctor, even ice cream shop) and confronts the client in the comments or even personally (seen once) instead of taking in the feedback
we are back to using word of mouth, museum Europe reinventing the wheel :D
and honestly in western europe and especially in german speaking countries restaurants are not really worth the high price, I rarely go, and most of the time only when someone recommends or its absolutely necessary like on a vacation with family once in blue moon
In last few years I’ve been to multiple very mediocre hotels and restaurants with 4.5 or higher rating, so there is definitely some sort of manipulation going on.
Frankly, if I had a restaurant I would also try to crank up my rating.
It’s still useful though, the above experiences taught me to actually read the reviews, and read between the lines. It just takes more time.
This year I tend to ignore restaurants with rates lower than 4.7 as this usually means they are not really worth the money. I do the same evaluating places to stay on booking.com. If it's an apartment it has to be at least 9.5 and have more than 50 reviews. Otherwise the reviews could be just all fake. Good hotels usually start around 9.0 (I think people have higher expectations against hotels in general thus lower ratings).
I have to say re-building those internal scales takes a couple of brain cycles in my head every now and then, but I'm already used to those skewed ratings after checking IMDb reviews for years and learning that anything below 7.2 is a total crap and the rating above 8.0 usually marks a masterpiece.
that a big problem. Its because one never know whether its a customer or a bad actor giving the bad rating. In the case of google, I would go through the process and tell them everything about the visit (proof it) and then, if it gets blocked, issue a complaint with the regulators/Bundesnetzagentur.
May be you also didn't chose the right legal counseling? Just wondering.. but yes. Its a weapon and each one utilizes it. I would go on the full with such things and give proof and write quotes for the time needed and send them to the businesses like "because you cant stand the truth, here is the quote for 1h search evidence, 1h write up, 1h ... this that. Its perfect legal to write quotes in Germany. Its important not to move away from your right.
the other thing is, you don't know whether the removal is initiated by the businesses or is an algorithm-change happend??? Thats also a known thing, businesses losing bad and good customer ratings. They also tend to sue google after for their good reviews.
good luck on all your paths you step onto ;)
I once also had a situation with a doctor. But at that time I said bye and let him do the work of removing the post. I think, I'll go visit his office one day and write the same thing again with a few additional photos that puts a ledger on my written thing.
Thanks. I am pretty sure that they are the ones initiating it though. I mean if I had a restaurant I wouldn't want either to have bad reviews, but it shouldn't be that simple.
I was recently in Mexico and 3 different places asked us directly for positive reviews in exchange for free food/drinks. This made me reconsider how I use Google Maps for finding places to eat and stay. You basically have to rely on the 2-star and 4-star reviews to filter out a) the lunatics and b) the shills.
That's the truth, there are whole agencies specializing in removing bad reviews in Germany. The laws are really skewed against consumers in this respect.
I was looking for a gym and went to several, multiple times, paying outrageous amounts for single visits. Then I reviewed them on Google. None of my reviews survived the "defamation" steamroller.
I guess soon we'll be like Chinese people, inventing parables to say the truth without getting censored. "This was an amazing gym for a relaxing afternoon of crowd watching", or "I very thoroughly enjoyed the company of my friends while waiting for food in this restaurant, it also left me with an overrwhelming lightness in both my stomach and my wallet"...
> This all started for me about three years ago, when I left a Google review for a doctor saying I felt discriminated against. Shortly after, I got slapped with a legal threat demanding €40,000 in damages. I ended up settling and paying €1,000 in legal fees just to avoid the nightmare of going to court. That was my wake-up call—but back then, I thought it was an edge case.
Sounds like you need an anti-slapp law[1], I did a quick google and it looks like one is in the works[2] but not implemented yet. Given your experience it seem unlikely anything is currently in place, of if there is it does not give much protection.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ...
[2] https://www.blueprintforfreespeech.net/en/news/german-govern...
Sounds interesting. When I told the case I had to my lawyer friends from the US, they laughed and said it would be funny to have such a case there. So we definitely need something like that.
Trust me 1-Star-Drive-By Reviews by "customers" without any merit are just as bad for businesses.
So, congrats. You've basically discovered that online review systems suck. Look at app stores. Look at Amazon product reviews. It's all being gamed and manipulated and abused. Google obviously won't moderate any of this because there's no substantial business value.
> This all started for me about three years ago, when I left a Google review for a doctor saying I felt discriminated against. Shortly after, I got slapped with a legal threat demanding €40,000 in damages. I ended up settling and paying €1,000 in legal fees just to avoid the nightmare of going to court.
They can force you to court over a google review?!
if they can figure out who made the review they can claim defamation
Exactly, and at that time I was naive to put my (only first name) name on Google, as it is my only account. And they figured it out from their patients' records and sued me.
I've seen this several times in Google maps, the business owner finds out who the client is (gym, doctor, even ice cream shop) and confronts the client in the comments or even personally (seen once) instead of taking in the feedback
What alternatives do we have to find good restaurants while travelling around in Germany or Europe?
TripAdvisor, OpenTable - do they suffer under the same mechanisms that all ratings finally go up?
we are back to using word of mouth, museum Europe reinventing the wheel :D
and honestly in western europe and especially in german speaking countries restaurants are not really worth the high price, I rarely go, and most of the time only when someone recommends or its absolutely necessary like on a vacation with family once in blue moon
All restaurants in Western Europe are bad? That is… quite the sweeping statement.
> All restaurants in Western Europe are bad? That is… quite the sweeping statement.
completely agree with you, the statement _you_ made is quite the sweeping statement
All reviews should be made anonymously on a public platform (not a company website).
To prevent spam, a web of trust has te be employed.
In last few years I’ve been to multiple very mediocre hotels and restaurants with 4.5 or higher rating, so there is definitely some sort of manipulation going on.
Frankly, if I had a restaurant I would also try to crank up my rating.
It’s still useful though, the above experiences taught me to actually read the reviews, and read between the lines. It just takes more time.
This year I tend to ignore restaurants with rates lower than 4.7 as this usually means they are not really worth the money. I do the same evaluating places to stay on booking.com. If it's an apartment it has to be at least 9.5 and have more than 50 reviews. Otherwise the reviews could be just all fake. Good hotels usually start around 9.0 (I think people have higher expectations against hotels in general thus lower ratings).
I have to say re-building those internal scales takes a couple of brain cycles in my head every now and then, but I'm already used to those skewed ratings after checking IMDb reviews for years and learning that anything below 7.2 is a total crap and the rating above 8.0 usually marks a masterpiece.
that a big problem. Its because one never know whether its a customer or a bad actor giving the bad rating. In the case of google, I would go through the process and tell them everything about the visit (proof it) and then, if it gets blocked, issue a complaint with the regulators/Bundesnetzagentur.
May be you also didn't chose the right legal counseling? Just wondering.. but yes. Its a weapon and each one utilizes it. I would go on the full with such things and give proof and write quotes for the time needed and send them to the businesses like "because you cant stand the truth, here is the quote for 1h search evidence, 1h write up, 1h ... this that. Its perfect legal to write quotes in Germany. Its important not to move away from your right.
the other thing is, you don't know whether the removal is initiated by the businesses or is an algorithm-change happend??? Thats also a known thing, businesses losing bad and good customer ratings. They also tend to sue google after for their good reviews.
good luck on all your paths you step onto ;)
I once also had a situation with a doctor. But at that time I said bye and let him do the work of removing the post. I think, I'll go visit his office one day and write the same thing again with a few additional photos that puts a ledger on my written thing.
Thanks. I am pretty sure that they are the ones initiating it though. I mean if I had a restaurant I wouldn't want either to have bad reviews, but it shouldn't be that simple.