Sounds awesome, but this article seems to be an LLM rewrite of a press release:
> This article is based on verified sources and supported by editorial technologies.
Is there perhaps any other news about this plant or process, maybe with additional context on what will determine the market viability of their approach?
Also, the team of human journalists aren't actual humans; they're AI-generated pictures of humans. Reverse image searching shows they reuse the same fake profiles on an astonishing number (thousands?) of different AI slop sites, under different fake names.
To randomly pick one of those thousands: on the reputable e-commerce site Amazon.com, "Rosemary Potter" sells LLM-generated cookbooks under the nom de plume "Samantha Green":
I don't know. It looks like every battery recycling facility I've seen before: piles of non-descript objects with unreadable labels, machines with unreadable signs posted on them, etc.
Anybody with piles of batteries like that needs a very powerful sprinkler system. Lithium battery fires at recycling centers have become a major problem, even with only a few lithium batteries. Search "lithium battery recycling fire".
There are deluge systems that can cope with battery fires. They're simple, but need a big water supply.
This is why this sort of industry usually ends up in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh. They’re desperate for work and don’t worry about safety or environmental pollution.
It was my understanding that battery fires don't go out because they are basically self fueling. You would be better served having a way to contain it until it burned itself out.
Seems like a waste of good water. Anyone with that quantity of batteries should have a large pile of sand on hand, a pre-placed giant hole in the ground, and a bulldozer to manage the job.
Yeah great idea, letting the fire rage in the ground (it provides its own oxygen) and leeching a lot of chemical waste products into the ground water :)
One of the recycling steps is dissolving the lithium in water. So they might just as well take a burning battery and just chuck it into the shredder, and then mix the burning slurry with water.
Contrary to the popular belief, lithium batteries do NOT contain enough oxygen to just keep self-burning. Most of the lithium-ion pyrotechnics is just from good old atmospheric oxygen, which oxidizes the organic electrolyte.
What lithium-ion batteries have is the ignition source that basically keeps going on and on. So once you extinguish the burning electrolyte, it just keeps reigniting.
That's interesting! I didn't realize that lithium-ion batteries were full of lithium hexafluorophosphate, or that it hydrolyzed to form HF at 70° in the presence of water. Thanks!
Cuz I know in San Diego a lithium battery recycling project just cleared government inspection to shred and recycle batteries at ANY SoC, which is a major improvement vs most any other li-ion recycling facility which needs those batteries drained as much as possible before recycling begins.
Are we allowed to flag AI-generated articles? I feel like we should be.
I certainly did flag this one, it starts with an egregiously stupid AI "illustration" of the plant, and ends with "This article is based on verified sources and supported by editorial technologies", aka an AI wrote this.
Low-effort, full of inaccuracies = get that out of my sight, please.
What I do is send a brief email to hn@ and they will usually add (this kind of) domain to the blacklisted spam list. It's a more permanent solution than flagging.
That's really cool! And if before recycling your (ebike) batteries you want to repair them, check out what we've designed in France at Gouach: https://gouach.com
Wow, glad someone is doing this, looks ideal. We’ve a cargo bike with battery failing (physical connector we can’t replace and some cells borderline), when you get to Yahama motors we’d be interested to look into it.
This is awesome! I want to see the full video from the flame tests to failure vs. the security camera footage online of the e-scooter burning down the house while everyone is out.
I think the main barrier to reusing batteries right away is that the batteries need to be checked to make sure the charge level is consistent.
all batteries should be roughly on equal level of charge, so that the whole unit performs optimally and doesn't cause issues (like catching a fire and burning down your house)
Red Wood Materials by former Tesla CTO is already reusing and recycling batteries at scale. Basically, they process all sorts of batteries. They've developed tools and electronics to monitor battery packs and cells. In their main facility in Nevada, they simply wire up the batteries and put them outside. They use solar power to charge the battery. The whole facility runs on that.
An interesting aspect with degraded EV batteries is that there's still plenty of life left in them. Also, they last longer if you limit their power output, charging speeds and cool them properly.
The batteries don't actually get recycled until they stop working. They have a few gwh of battery storage made out of repurposed EV batteries and a facility that processes expended cells to recover all sorts of materials. A lot of what they do boils down to inspecting and monitoring packs and cells and interfacing with existing battery management solutions.
Apparently, they are recovering a lot of material and selling it back to battery manufacturers already. Both the storage business and the material selling business have the potential to generate nice amounts of revenue.
The main limitation for growing the business isn't technical but the fact that there simply aren't that many batteries yet to recycle. It will be some years before supply of end of life EVs and batteries starts ramping up. And years more before their batteries stop being useful for storage. A lot of the batteries they process are discarded during the production process.
Sounds awesome, but this article seems to be an LLM rewrite of a press release:
> This article is based on verified sources and supported by editorial technologies.
Is there perhaps any other news about this plant or process, maybe with additional context on what will determine the market viability of their approach?
The cover image is also very misleading, it is ai-generated, but is presented as an image of the new facility
Also, the team of human journalists aren't actual humans; they're AI-generated pictures of humans. Reverse image searching shows they reuse the same fake profiles on an astonishing number (thousands?) of different AI slop sites, under different fake names.
https://www.energy-reporters.com/meet-the-team/
To randomly pick one of those thousands: on the reputable e-commerce site Amazon.com, "Rosemary Potter" sells LLM-generated cookbooks under the nom de plume "Samantha Green":
https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B086FTC9NJ/about
Just how deep are we, exactly, in the dead-internet world?
I recall brunp from CATL/Robin Zeng in China said this: > recovery rate of over 90% for lithium and 99% for nickel, cobalt and manganese.
So its nice the US has a competitor here
I hope someone digs up a proper source for that because this one is a pile of AI slop illustrated with more AI slop.
Edit: I could not find anything yet.
The original press release is here: https://pnecycle.com/the-u-s-battery-circular-economy-advanc...
I don't know. It looks like every battery recycling facility I've seen before: piles of non-descript objects with unreadable labels, machines with unreadable signs posted on them, etc.
And two men in orange vests missing their left arms? Didn’t realize battery recycling facilities were so hazardous to limbs.
You know those lithium explosions can be pretty bad.
Right.
Anybody with piles of batteries like that needs a very powerful sprinkler system. Lithium battery fires at recycling centers have become a major problem, even with only a few lithium batteries. Search "lithium battery recycling fire".
There are deluge systems that can cope with battery fires. They're simple, but need a big water supply.
This is why this sort of industry usually ends up in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh. They’re desperate for work and don’t worry about safety or environmental pollution.
It was my understanding that battery fires don't go out because they are basically self fueling. You would be better served having a way to contain it until it burned itself out.
it's self catalyzing, but only above a certain temperature. if you dump enough water on it, it goes out
Seems like a waste of good water. Anyone with that quantity of batteries should have a large pile of sand on hand, a pre-placed giant hole in the ground, and a bulldozer to manage the job.
Yeah great idea, letting the fire rage in the ground (it provides its own oxygen) and leeching a lot of chemical waste products into the ground water :)
One of the recycling steps is dissolving the lithium in water. So they might just as well take a burning battery and just chuck it into the shredder, and then mix the burning slurry with water.
Contrary to the popular belief, lithium batteries do NOT contain enough oxygen to just keep self-burning. Most of the lithium-ion pyrotechnics is just from good old atmospheric oxygen, which oxidizes the organic electrolyte.
What lithium-ion batteries have is the ignition source that basically keeps going on and on. So once you extinguish the burning electrolyte, it just keeps reigniting.
Well, the point of the sand would be to stop the burning pile from spewing HF, which could be pretty annoying.
That's interesting! I didn't realize that lithium-ion batteries were full of lithium hexafluorophosphate, or that it hydrolyzed to form HF at 70° in the presence of water. Thanks!
We don't stick chemical waste in the ground anymore, just saying :)
At what SoC?
Cuz I know in San Diego a lithium battery recycling project just cleared government inspection to shred and recycle batteries at ANY SoC, which is a major improvement vs most any other li-ion recycling facility which needs those batteries drained as much as possible before recycling begins.
Are we allowed to flag AI-generated articles? I feel like we should be.
I certainly did flag this one, it starts with an egregiously stupid AI "illustration" of the plant, and ends with "This article is based on verified sources and supported by editorial technologies", aka an AI wrote this.
Low-effort, full of inaccuracies = get that out of my sight, please.
What I do is send a brief email to hn@ and they will usually add (this kind of) domain to the blacklisted spam list. It's a more permanent solution than flagging.
Thanks, that's a good idea.
Not only is this so-called article slop, it breaks the back button. One more site to blacklist.
That's really cool! And if before recycling your (ebike) batteries you want to repair them, check out what we've designed in France at Gouach: https://gouach.com
Wow, glad someone is doing this, looks ideal. We’ve a cargo bike with battery failing (physical connector we can’t replace and some cells borderline), when you get to Yahama motors we’d be interested to look into it.
This is awesome! I want to see the full video from the flame tests to failure vs. the security camera footage online of the e-scooter burning down the house while everyone is out.
Brilliant! Looks like you’ve recently started shipping, too. How are your unit economics?
Recycling lithium ion batteries makes my head hurt.
I think it would make more sense to reuse them:
1) use them in a car for 10 years
2) then pull them out then use them in a home for 10 more years
Recycling the batteries instead of #2 seems to me like recycling last years CPUs and GPUs for the silicon content.
or alternatively, it seems like grinding up lease return vehicles to be "green" (and conveniently get rid of the secondary market for used vehicles)
What should happen to them after the 10 years as a home battery?
I think the main barrier to reusing batteries right away is that the batteries need to be checked to make sure the charge level is consistent.
all batteries should be roughly on equal level of charge, so that the whole unit performs optimally and doesn't cause issues (like catching a fire and burning down your house)
Red Wood Materials by former Tesla CTO is already reusing and recycling batteries at scale. Basically, they process all sorts of batteries. They've developed tools and electronics to monitor battery packs and cells. In their main facility in Nevada, they simply wire up the batteries and put them outside. They use solar power to charge the battery. The whole facility runs on that.
An interesting aspect with degraded EV batteries is that there's still plenty of life left in them. Also, they last longer if you limit their power output, charging speeds and cool them properly.
The batteries don't actually get recycled until they stop working. They have a few gwh of battery storage made out of repurposed EV batteries and a facility that processes expended cells to recover all sorts of materials. A lot of what they do boils down to inspecting and monitoring packs and cells and interfacing with existing battery management solutions.
Apparently, they are recovering a lot of material and selling it back to battery manufacturers already. Both the storage business and the material selling business have the potential to generate nice amounts of revenue.
The main limitation for growing the business isn't technical but the fact that there simply aren't that many batteries yet to recycle. It will be some years before supply of end of life EVs and batteries starts ramping up. And years more before their batteries stop being useful for storage. A lot of the batteries they process are discarded during the production process.