How many "mistakes" are going to be made in this process, I wonder? A colleague of mine had his student's visa status suddenly revoked a few months ago. Fortunately, the student's lawyers successfully argued in court that there were no grounds for revocation. It still isn't clear why any of it happened.
> How many "mistakes" are going to be made in this process, I wonder?
Yup that is terrible but you're not making an omelette without breaking eggs.
To make an apropos parallel: apparently there are anywhere from 11 to 22 million illegals in the US: there are going to be unfair cases. You're not sending back tens of millions of illegals back without a few "mistakes".
As an US citizen, do you really want to fight for the "rights" of muslim students to chant "from the river to the sea" while burning american flags on campuses?
If you're on a visa and spend your time explaining on social media that you want to submit to a foreign religion and imitate a warlord, slave-owning, prophet who had sex with a nine years old while explaining that the US is the great satan then maybe, just maybe, that it's fair if your visa gets revoked?
Some people shall see the "mistakes" but I'm seeing people hating on the west being sent back to their countries.
I also don't think people on visa are entitled to anything. It's a privilege to be accepted into the US: act accordingly if you want to one day get your green card. And once you get it, keep acting accordingly and don't suddenly discover a lost love for some ideology that made you, in the first place, leave the country you left and come to the US.
FWIW I also believe that US politicians who say they're Somali before being american and that they'll defend Somali interests should be sent back as well. Especially if they entered the US by illegally marrying their brother and lying about their husband being actually their brother (if I understood that affair correctly).
Sounds like you’re terrified of immigrants for lack of human understanding.
Like a child.
Here’s the thing - this whole experiment was built on stolen land with slave labor and there can never be immigration “justice” on stolen land.
What problem is being solved by making “a few mistakes” because that’s what you have to do in such situations?
Libertarian conservatives like yourself have created a service based economy where labor can’t afford to live where the work is making the economy inherently dependent on immigrants of any stripe.
But like so many other things understood by people who think like 8 year olds we will have to learn the hard way that, for example, scaring away all the illegal Mexicans will result in billions in food losses and price increases on everything, but at least we got some bad immigrants, right?
Seems inflated. Reliable estimates run around 2/3 of that. Higher numbers always seem anchored only by handwavey 'there must be more because reasons', which is why you regularly see people claiming sums of 20m, 30m, 40m. The current president has a habit of picking arbitrary numbers based on his feelings, but that doesn't sem a very reliable system to me.
this is done to deport all pro-Palestine and anti-Zionist visa holders, with the help of Palantir.
Social media posts have been scrubbed, list of people have been prepared, just a matter of cross-checking whether they are non-citizens and can be deported
The reason for the flag is always the same: because they don’t want to talk about it here.
The real question is: why don’t people want to talk about it? I’ve found it typically falls into three camps:
One group flags these kinds of stories because they’re exhausted, and can’t stomach any more. I feel bad for this group, and I understand the impulse.
Another group flags because suppressing information about what the administration is up to aligns with their personal ideology. This is the more dangerous group, and I’m always sad to see people coming out in support of awful stuff like this.
The last group flags it because it annoys them, and they don’t want to engage with it. It makes them uncomfortable and they feel it doesn’t impact them. They point to the HN guidelines and say it’s not relevant. It is, they’re just lucky enough to have not been affected personally by anything yet.
I'm sure there's more. The type of people who clamor for power often do so for the ability to do amoral things.
It's unsuprising theres a mix of nazis and israelis at the helm of America's "self interest" and there's criminals, child molestors, rapists constantly being squeezed out.
Nothing really to see here. Normal course of business, except maybe that reviewing all 55m systematically is gonna take a while with all the database joins you will have to do across disparate systems.
Sure, f you trust the administration to rely on objective standards rather than making arbitrary and capricious decisions at scale. Looking at social media, I see a lot of people (including GOP county chairs, example below) saying things like 'deport them all, let them reapply for re-entry,' which kinda proves the argument that it was never about illegal immigration in the first place.
If you have ever had to apply for a Schengen Visa to enter the EU, then you will know how strict the EU is (even hotels want to see your passport and record it).
Nobody is saying it should be as easy to immigrate to the US as it is to immigrate to The Netherlands, they are saying that immigrating to the US should be easier than this administration is making it.
> Nobody is saying it should be as easy to immigrate to the US as it is to immigrate to The Netherlands, they are saying that immigrating to the US should be easier than this administration is making it.
Ah, we're not talking about the same thing.
I drew the comparison to The Netherlands' list of reasons for why they would revoke or deny your VISA (which is what the article is about w.r.t. the US), and it is not dissimilar.
I wasn't contrasting ease of immigration between the two countries. It is a mixed bag, but for educated immigrants the it is generally easier to immigrate to The Netherlands than the US (if you are doing so outside the law, I'm going to guess it is much easier "to make it work" in the US than in The Netherlands - both in terms of getting in but also to make a living). There are some notable barriers like you cannot have dual citizenship (the US allows). On the other hand, demand for immigration to the US is much higher, which, together with more arcane and byzantine regulations result in other structural barriers.
That recording is actually unlawful. They can look at it, and compare it with your face, write up the address in their systems, and that should be it. This practice of copying passports/id-cards is malpractice. The (european) issuers actually say so!
It's certainly to be some sort of political litmus test with a quick perusal of social media for anything other than rabid Trump support along with a test for darker tone of skin or country of origin that is out of favor, to bulk up their failure to kick out enough migrants (not coming close to their stated goals of 1000s per day) through the means they have used so far with fake justification, ticky tacky legal and paperwork issues used to justify deportation.
Whether or not the person has ever attended an anti-Israel protest is an objective standard that is not arbitrary. There are lots of bad things to say, but it's not arbitrary or unobjective.
The 'arbitrary and capricious' part (a legal term of art) is in saying things like attending a protest constitute grounds for deportation absent any published rules or guidance to this effect. While statute law gives wide discretion to the Secretary of State and Attorney-General in immigration matters, there's still an obligation for transparency and process, which is why there's a whole infrastructure set up for contestation, appeals and so on. You cannot just start issuing orders of removal based on, say, whether people like waffles.
As a side note, Israel isn't a US state the last time I looked. I doubt that a blanket ban on political expression could survive a first amendment challenge.
> is in saying things like attending a protest constitute grounds for deportation absent any published rules or guidance to this effect.
The law is clear that if you support a terrorist group, your visa application can be denied or your current visa revoked.
If we take Hamas for example, they are designated a terrorist group by: European Union, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States, Organization of American States, Switzerland[1]
If you are in the US on a non-immigrant visa (you are a guest) and you go to a rally in support of Hamas, I struggle to understand why it would be controversial that the US can revoke your visa ("your permission to be in the US").
I'm sorry you feel that way, but perhaps what I can say is that I'm trying to be hyper-precise about the boundaries (as I see them at least), rather than move them.
I think it is fine to be outraged about:
a) systematic racist (read: selective) application of the law
b) no due process
c) egregious mistakes
d) commanding the military to stampede cities (ok, in reality, it is more show than scary, but the precedent is unacceptable)
What I don't think is valid is arguing that the government should not apply the law as it stands, which empowers the government to revoke or deny visas (or residency application or naturalization application) for reasons enumerated by the State Department: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...
The test may not be arbitrary. How the test was chosen is. A CAPTCHA is an objective test; forcing everyone in high school to take one is arbitrary.
(Also, to my knowledge, mere attendance wouldn’t constitute a lawful reason to eject. Material support would have to have been offered, e.g. fundraising for Hamas.
> it is another thing to punish people protesting a third country israel.
> it just signifies who really occupies all positions of power in this country
who is this group of people who occupy all positions of power in this country?
men? white men? republicans? billionaires? women? straights?
which group of people have their grabby hands all over the positions of power in this country?
This is not normal course of business at all. This is probably a wave of capricious decision making to "meet quota" because they are not able to find and catch illegal immigrants to make news.
They're going to do a few keyword searches for things "Gaza" and "universal healthcare" and try to mass-deport anyone who used those words on social media. And if no one tries to stop them, then it will happen. Habeas Corpus is gone.
How many "mistakes" are going to be made in this process, I wonder? A colleague of mine had his student's visa status suddenly revoked a few months ago. Fortunately, the student's lawyers successfully argued in court that there were no grounds for revocation. It still isn't clear why any of it happened.
> How many "mistakes" are going to be made in this process, I wonder?
Yup that is terrible but you're not making an omelette without breaking eggs.
To make an apropos parallel: apparently there are anywhere from 11 to 22 million illegals in the US: there are going to be unfair cases. You're not sending back tens of millions of illegals back without a few "mistakes".
As an US citizen, do you really want to fight for the "rights" of muslim students to chant "from the river to the sea" while burning american flags on campuses?
If you're on a visa and spend your time explaining on social media that you want to submit to a foreign religion and imitate a warlord, slave-owning, prophet who had sex with a nine years old while explaining that the US is the great satan then maybe, just maybe, that it's fair if your visa gets revoked?
Some people shall see the "mistakes" but I'm seeing people hating on the west being sent back to their countries.
I also don't think people on visa are entitled to anything. It's a privilege to be accepted into the US: act accordingly if you want to one day get your green card. And once you get it, keep acting accordingly and don't suddenly discover a lost love for some ideology that made you, in the first place, leave the country you left and come to the US.
FWIW I also believe that US politicians who say they're Somali before being american and that they'll defend Somali interests should be sent back as well. Especially if they entered the US by illegally marrying their brother and lying about their husband being actually their brother (if I understood that affair correctly).
Sounds like you’re terrified of immigrants for lack of human understanding. Like a child. Here’s the thing - this whole experiment was built on stolen land with slave labor and there can never be immigration “justice” on stolen land. What problem is being solved by making “a few mistakes” because that’s what you have to do in such situations? Libertarian conservatives like yourself have created a service based economy where labor can’t afford to live where the work is making the economy inherently dependent on immigrants of any stripe. But like so many other things understood by people who think like 8 year olds we will have to learn the hard way that, for example, scaring away all the illegal Mexicans will result in billions in food losses and price increases on everything, but at least we got some bad immigrants, right?
Naturalized citizens are up next.
Does this include H-1B fraud?
It should.
Anything that implicates businesses, unles clearly run by dirty communists, will be ignored.
55M visa holders ???
I had no idea it was that many.
I thought 18M undocumented was a high %age!
342M people in the US. 16% visa holders
I wonder how that compares to other countries?
https://www.census.gov/popclock/
https://www.census.gov/topics/population/foreign-born/about....
Historically this isn't exceptional, and is arguably a reversion ot hte mean following the disruption of a WW2 and its aftershocks.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/imm...
I thought 18M undocumented was a high %age!
Seems inflated. Reliable estimates run around 2/3 of that. Higher numbers always seem anchored only by handwavey 'there must be more because reasons', which is why you regularly see people claiming sums of 20m, 30m, 40m. The current president has a habit of picking arbitrary numbers based on his feelings, but that doesn't sem a very reliable system to me.
https://ohss.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-06/2024_0418_o...
this is done to deport all pro-Palestine and anti-Zionist visa holders, with the help of Palantir.
Social media posts have been scrubbed, list of people have been prepared, just a matter of cross-checking whether they are non-citizens and can be deported
https://amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/palantir-babel-street-s...
Why is this flagged, can anyone explain?
Seems relevant since a lot of tech ppl are on visa
The reason for the flag is always the same: because they don’t want to talk about it here.
The real question is: why don’t people want to talk about it? I’ve found it typically falls into three camps:
One group flags these kinds of stories because they’re exhausted, and can’t stomach any more. I feel bad for this group, and I understand the impulse.
Another group flags because suppressing information about what the administration is up to aligns with their personal ideology. This is the more dangerous group, and I’m always sad to see people coming out in support of awful stuff like this.
The last group flags it because it annoys them, and they don’t want to engage with it. It makes them uncomfortable and they feel it doesn’t impact them. They point to the HN guidelines and say it’s not relevant. It is, they’re just lucky enough to have not been affected personally by anything yet.
I pity the last group, honestly.
Possibly a fourth group of startup founders and investors that don't want H1B pipelines to dry up as a result of constant bad news.
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I'm sure there's more. The type of people who clamor for power often do so for the ability to do amoral things.
It's unsuprising theres a mix of nazis and israelis at the helm of America's "self interest" and there's criminals, child molestors, rapists constantly being squeezed out.
Nothing really to see here. Normal course of business, except maybe that reviewing all 55m systematically is gonna take a while with all the database joins you will have to do across disparate systems.
Sure, f you trust the administration to rely on objective standards rather than making arbitrary and capricious decisions at scale. Looking at social media, I see a lot of people (including GOP county chairs, example below) saying things like 'deport them all, let them reapply for re-entry,' which kinda proves the argument that it was never about illegal immigration in the first place.
https://x.com/BoFrenchTX/status/1958611053119775213
It is worth familiarizing oneself with VISA rules in other countries and how they enforce them, before the automatic outrage.
Let's take The Netherlands as an example to get a feel.
- Pronouncement of undesirability: https://ind.nl/en/pronouncement-of-undesirability
- Entry bans: https://ind.nl/en/entry-ban
If you have ever had to apply for a Schengen Visa to enter the EU, then you will know how strict the EU is (even hotels want to see your passport and record it).
Nobody is saying it should be as easy to immigrate to the US as it is to immigrate to The Netherlands, they are saying that immigrating to the US should be easier than this administration is making it.
> Nobody is saying it should be as easy to immigrate to the US as it is to immigrate to The Netherlands, they are saying that immigrating to the US should be easier than this administration is making it.
Ah, we're not talking about the same thing.
I drew the comparison to The Netherlands' list of reasons for why they would revoke or deny your VISA (which is what the article is about w.r.t. the US), and it is not dissimilar.
I wasn't contrasting ease of immigration between the two countries. It is a mixed bag, but for educated immigrants the it is generally easier to immigrate to The Netherlands than the US (if you are doing so outside the law, I'm going to guess it is much easier "to make it work" in the US than in The Netherlands - both in terms of getting in but also to make a living). There are some notable barriers like you cannot have dual citizenship (the US allows). On the other hand, demand for immigration to the US is much higher, which, together with more arcane and byzantine regulations result in other structural barriers.
That recording is actually unlawful. They can look at it, and compare it with your face, write up the address in their systems, and that should be it. This practice of copying passports/id-cards is malpractice. The (european) issuers actually say so!
It's certainly to be some sort of political litmus test with a quick perusal of social media for anything other than rabid Trump support along with a test for darker tone of skin or country of origin that is out of favor, to bulk up their failure to kick out enough migrants (not coming close to their stated goals of 1000s per day) through the means they have used so far with fake justification, ticky tacky legal and paperwork issues used to justify deportation.
Whether or not the person has ever attended an anti-Israel protest is an objective standard that is not arbitrary. There are lots of bad things to say, but it's not arbitrary or unobjective.
The 'arbitrary and capricious' part (a legal term of art) is in saying things like attending a protest constitute grounds for deportation absent any published rules or guidance to this effect. While statute law gives wide discretion to the Secretary of State and Attorney-General in immigration matters, there's still an obligation for transparency and process, which is why there's a whole infrastructure set up for contestation, appeals and so on. You cannot just start issuing orders of removal based on, say, whether people like waffles.
As a side note, Israel isn't a US state the last time I looked. I doubt that a blanket ban on political expression could survive a first amendment challenge.
> is in saying things like attending a protest constitute grounds for deportation absent any published rules or guidance to this effect.
The law is clear that if you support a terrorist group, your visa application can be denied or your current visa revoked.
If we take Hamas for example, they are designated a terrorist group by: European Union, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, Paraguay, United Kingdom, United States, Organization of American States, Switzerland[1]
If you are in the US on a non-immigrant visa (you are a guest) and you go to a rally in support of Hamas, I struggle to understand why it would be controversial that the US can revoke your visa ("your permission to be in the US").
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_g...
> if you support a terrorist group
What does "support" mean in this context?
Commonly, when we talk about "support" for an organization (or a cause) it can mean any of the following:
1) financial (e.g. donations, membership fees, investments)
2) human resources (e.g. volunteers, staffing, training)
3) material & in-kind (e.g. equipment, office space, supplies)
4) knowledge & expertise (e.g advisory, R&D, workshops, training)
5) networking & partnerships (e.g. collaboration, referrals, advocacy alliances)
6) policy & institutional (applies to governments, not individuals, so not relevant "in this context")
7) community & social (e.g. public awareness, volunteer mobilization, cultural legitimacy)
How is protesting against the genocide suddenly becomes “supporting a terrorist group”?
Only material support for terror group (fundraising and sending $$$ to people in the OFAC list)
See my reply to sibling about what people generally mean with the word "support".
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> goalposts
I'm sorry you feel that way, but perhaps what I can say is that I'm trying to be hyper-precise about the boundaries (as I see them at least), rather than move them.
I think it is fine to be outraged about:
a) systematic racist (read: selective) application of the law
b) no due process
c) egregious mistakes
d) commanding the military to stampede cities (ok, in reality, it is more show than scary, but the precedent is unacceptable)
What I don't think is valid is arguing that the government should not apply the law as it stands, which empowers the government to revoke or deny visas (or residency application or naturalization application) for reasons enumerated by the State Department: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...
Nobody was making such an argument and you know it.
> attended an anti-Israel protest
The test may not be arbitrary. How the test was chosen is. A CAPTCHA is an objective test; forcing everyone in high school to take one is arbitrary.
(Also, to my knowledge, mere attendance wouldn’t constitute a lawful reason to eject. Material support would have to have been offered, e.g. fundraising for Hamas.
if it is not arbitrary, as you claim, surely it must be encoded in law and history of past precedents, right ?
Israeli people need to read the 1st Amendment that we have in the US
The USA does have a long history of punishing people severely for protesting.
it is one thing to punish people protesting USA, it is another thing to punish people protesting a third country israel.
it just signifies who really occupies all positions of power in this country
> it is another thing to punish people protesting a third country israel. > it just signifies who really occupies all positions of power in this country
who is this group of people who occupy all positions of power in this country? men? white men? republicans? billionaires? women? straights?
which group of people have their grabby hands all over the positions of power in this country?
from your suggestive tone, it looks like you already know the answer...
This is not normal course of business at all. This is probably a wave of capricious decision making to "meet quota" because they are not able to find and catch illegal immigrants to make news.
They're going to do a few keyword searches for things "Gaza" and "universal healthcare" and try to mass-deport anyone who used those words on social media. And if no one tries to stop them, then it will happen. Habeas Corpus is gone.
You say that as if Palantir does not already have all this information ready for AI analysis today.
Or that the NSA doesn't have it all centralized, tagged and sorted.
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