I can’t decide if it’s depressing or not that so much of the web and the discussion on it now revolves around subjects almost entirely fabricated by AI. The OP is using ChatGPT to write, then replying with ChatGPT, all about an app he built with ChatGPT. I get that we live in the AI era but there’s something sad about real people spending their time engaging with something a machine just spit out. In this case, the OP isn’t even the main character in his own story, he’s just the fingers copying and pasting code and words. An intermediary. We’re not getting authentic interactions from him or discussing something he actually created with his own skills.
It’s like the teacher who stays up all night grading papers, giving thoughtful feedback and carefully reading each one, only to learn most were generated by AI.
And yes I know about dead internet theory. But it’s posts like these that really make me miss the 90s and early 2000s where the learning was real and so were the people.
Your best moat against low effort copycats? Stamina. Keep your app in the store, update it regularly, add support for new devices, add new features if appropriate, keep marketing and selling it, and keep polishing it. The copycats don't want any part of that. They want to make a quick buck with as little work as possible, hence the copying and plagiarizing. In a matter of weeks or months, unless they're making bank from it, their app will start to rot. If your app has staying power, then you will eventually rise above them all. And when you have another good idea down the road, cross promote between your own apps (but don't be obnoxious about it), and you'll begin to grow a user base who trust you. That's as good a moat against copycats as you could ever get.
Wow, thank you so much for this. That's an incredibly thoughtful and well-put response.
You've perfectly articulated the exact strategy I think we should be trying to follow. My entire bet is that stamina is the only real moat. The copycats are looking for a quick win, but I'm committed to playing the long game: regular updates, new features, and genuine support. I already have new updates for macOS 26 rolling out.
Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out so clearly. This is exactly the kind of advice I was hoping we can all get from this discussion.
It's not clear to me what you'd want the moat to be. It can't be the idea, because you don't hold ownership over the concept of checking USB device speed. The marketing copy is pretty clearly something you could DMCA but also it seems unlikely people are buying a USB connection tester because of the dev's origin story.
You've hit on the exact right questions, and I agree with your analysis.
Regarding the origin story and copy, you're probably right that it's not the final reason someone clicks "buy." Its value is at the top of the marketing funnel—it's the hook that makes someone stop scrolling and consider an app from an unknown indie dev in the first place. It builds enough initial trust for them to actually look at the screenshots and features.
And thanks for the point about the DMCA—I will definitely be looking into that for the most blatant copycats.
I can only speak for myself, but when I'm looking for apps, the hierarchy of needs is something like:
1. Does it solve the underlying problem
2. Am I a standard or outlier user of the product
3. Does it make it easy to get it / use it
4. Is it from a company/developer that I like
I'm obviously not going to use an app that doesn't solve the original goal. Beyond that, some examples of things that have made me go chasing for other alternatives:
1. Updating the app isn't automated -- I use a window manager on Windows where updates have to be manually downloaded and run, and every time I update I google if there's a viable replacement.
2. The app has a bunch of fluff -- I'm currently trying a couple new apps for logging infant activity like diaper changes / feeds, and 90% of the options can do the task but are covered in other buttons/options/reports that I do not care about.
3. I'm clearly not the target audience for the developer -- I use Anydesk for remote management of some Windows desktops but all their plans are clearly enterprise/prosumer-focused and I'm actively preparing for them to kill off my plan level or break the functionality.
Study an audience for their pains and worldview and what they buy. Earn their trust through writing and freebies. Then they will want to buy because it's from you specifically.
I was going to write a similar comment. Think of it like music; anyone can copy a song but creating a unique song is another story. To be a good artist you need to have a particular vision of the world and be able to express that. The same is true for good software.
Influencer is a different idea. I'm not exactly sure how to articulate it. Your audience trusts you and you know them. An influencer just says stuff they were paid to.
Influencers say things they were paid to, certainly. But the reason that someone is willing to pay them in the first place is because they have an audience that knows them and trusts them. Influencer advertising is generally a VERY targeted endeavor that hinges entirely on the fact that an influencer builds a relationship with their very specific + curated target demographic. It's right in the name. Hard to influence anyone if they don't care what you have to say.
Hiring influencers is not a moat. They have the power and can sell it to a competitor. It's better to directly possess the privilege to ask for the sale.
App cloning has existed forever. When Flappy Bird took off you could find dozens of similar clones. You could buy app templates from various websites to spin your own version of Flappy Bird.
This has always been an issue for solo or indie apps because the apps are simpler, require couple of days to code and don't have money to fight copyright lawsuits.
There are app shops based in Eastern Europe and Asia - which can get an app up and running in matter of days. Some even sell done for you (DFY) services where they will find hot apps and clone it for you for a fixed amount. The idea being they get a steady stream of income and it is up to the buyer to ensure the app takes off and makes money over and above the amount paid to these services. This always mean apps have 7-day free trial with a subscription tacked on.
As for app curation Apple's interest is in having more apps and more developer revenue. It is same nearly every marketplace type sites.
When an app is simple and commoditized then moat depends on all of the things you mentioned.
Marketing is often a differentiator when you build a brand. For example there are tons of personal development coaches out there. But you know only few like Tony Robbins etc because of the marketing blitz and the brand name.
You can build a brand by actively participating with your users such that they prefer your app over the clones. Find ways to get into an Apple featured lists.
You can add features. But this might run into an issue of a bloated app with features no wants to use.
I understand that, and said literally that in the first section of my extensive response, but, like I also pointed out in my previous response, things are different now.
Traditional advice about fast PMF via fast public release no longer applies, and not just for phone apps; for all applications, whether SaaS, local, etc.
The only solution one can do is first build a set of leads, and then approach each one individually and privately to find PMF.
> You can build a brand by actively participating with your users such that they prefer your app over the clones.
For B2C, this is a losing proposition unless you are fueled with VC money.
With or without the advent LLMs, it's an uphill battle to build a moat around a small (but nice!) wrapper around the output of a command-line tool shipped with MacOS.
> what is the moat?
Increasingly, and sadly, it's online services with a monthly subscription and no data portability. Get users in with a generous free tier and pull up the drawbridge so they can't get out easily.
I appreciate you having a go and it does look very attractive. It's not a problem I have but $5 is a reasonable request for something that gets the info into an understandable format for somebody.
I do think that small, single-purpose apps are probably the easiest lunch to eat. Narrowly scoped greenfield projects are where the LLMs seem to excel right now so that game seems like a race to the bottom.
As far as the cloning goes: your only recourse is probably the DMCA angle for the exact duplicate text. It's a shame they're so lazy as to straight copy it, but I suspect the response (if any) will be them lightly laundering it through ChatGPT so it's no longer the same.
Good luck! And I hope you find more useful ideas people might pay for
I shared a book I was working on in a Facebook group I admin (with 10k members). It was just a book that I wanted to exist and read myself. I published it a week later. Then... little by little, similar books started appearing on Amazon. I didn't market it so much, so while mine was published first, it has way less traction than the others. It's a bit frustrating, but that's just the way the world is. People are leaches.
Like others have mentioned, though, your best bet is to just keep going. Keep pushing updates. Try to get reviews. Chances are, if they're copying your app, they're copying other apps. They'll never be able to keep up!
First, I’ll say congratulations! Sounds like you made something people really like, which is exciting and rare. Think of all the apps on product hunt that never budge. That’s awesome.
The business cycle from idea->software product->competitors is only getting shorter.
With this sort of app, I see popularity as your “moat”…
If Reddit is the top of your marketing funnel, win there. When I install a Mac app, I generally go with the one that’s most popular on the Mac apps subreddit, and has the most reviews / downloads, and has the biggest community. If everybody is recommending it, that’s generally good enough for me to try it. In that sense, once you have the lead, the winners keep winning, and the competitors eventually move on and do other stuff.
Again, congrats. It’s so cool to have built something people like.
That's an incredibly kind and insightful comment. Thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that.
You're right, the cycle from idea to competitor is getting terrifyingly short, and for a simple utility like this, a patent or complex code isn't the moat.
My entire plan is to focus on building a great product, being active in the community, and becoming the trusted, "original" recommendation that people like you would choose.
It's really encouraging to hear that perspective from a user. It validates that I'm on the right track.
Thanks again for the kind words and the fantastic analysis!
The only way to win copycats and competitors is to just execute your own vision. The best example I know is Wolfram Mathematica. ~35-40 years of incremental development guided by the same "product owner/visionary", and there are no real competitors left and it is nearly impossible to build competing product now.
I built an iOS app that remotely connects to an android device and pushes an apk in a few days with claude code. I dont know anything about adb, iOS and Swift is alien to me.
So to answer your question, LLMs have lowered the bar substantially
All the predictable “suck it up” comments from the peanut gallery (it’s easy isn’t it when it’s not your app huh?) are missing the point: Apple charges a 30% tax on the App Store and yet the moderation and curation is basically non-existent. No you shouldn’t just be able to post a cheap clone piggybacking on someone’s success. Yes they should police that. And yes of course they should police clear IP theft.
Nearly, if not all, every response by the OP is using ChatGPT. I'm familiar with it's common phrasing.
Common openers like: "You've hit on the", "You're right...",
as well as "exact right questions", "well-put response", "really appreciate", "I'm intentionally", "incredibly kind and insightful", "perfectly articulated", "incredibly thoughtful", <something> "is spot on", "completely agree".
ChatGPT has a tendency to qualify every verb with an adverb in-every-single-response as well as adding adjectives to various nouns to sound more intelligent.
edit: And looking at the Linux source for the Python script -- many tell-tale signs that it was 'vibe-coded' using ChatGPT. Comments for very obvious lines (most devs don't comment obvious things in-line).
Including this snippet that I always see in ChatGPT provided code:
# --- Your Existing Code (with minor adjustments) ---
> In the last two weeks, at least five near-identical apps have appeared on the App Store.
This has always been a problem, TBH. I completely stopped releasing anything on any store after my first experience on Android, where I created an actual novel approach to a personal problem experienced by many, and found clones within the first month of it getting traction.
That was in 2014!
> My app's value is its simplicity. In an environment where simple, successful ideas can be replicated this quickly, what is the moat? Is it brand, speed of innovation, marketing, or something else?
"Something else", but I don't know what that could be other than "marketing dollars".
I'm struggling with this right now, having a (what I think is) a novel approach to using LLMs in a way that improves the practical performance on complex tasks while simultaneously reducing tokens[1], but it's such an obvious approach that it can be replicated by a CC-driven process in (probably) a week or so, for the cost of a $200/m subscription.
So until I have some idea of how to proceed in a manner that lets me retain whatever customers I can get from cold-start, I've put my release on hold and simply use it myself for now.
My best idea thus far (and probably what everyone will be doing soon), is to engage individual businesses and sell only enterprise licenses of this.
This doesn't make the problem go away, but it means that a truly useful product will be under the radar to at least make back some of the development cost before clones appear.
Two other things to keep in mind:
1. Posting on HN used to be a good way to get traction. That is no longer the case - your idea will be shamelessly vibe-coded and marketed to an already collected and curated set of leads before the discussion is even archived!
2. The traditional startup advice about release early+often then iterate on PMF no longer applies: as you asymptotically approach PMF, the clones are going to be only a few hours behind you. Todya, as things stand, I dare not attempt to find PMF in public - it will be done with my carefully curated list of leads, privately.
Yes because they are. And the app is vibe coded. So all everyone in this thread is doing is chatting with ChatGPT about something it was told to write. There’s very little human interaction going on.
I have seen this post a few hours ago on Reddit. Now I see it here at HN… Now I assume it is just a way for somebody to bring a lot of attention to their app. Nothing else. OP has a great way to promote, upvote their posts.
Just to explain, their app can be written in 24 hours, maybe in 4 hours with some vibe coding. This app does not provide more information than System Information app on macOS. And we are talking about it on HN. So yes, this is clearly to bring attention to the app, and get more installs.
I am surprised this submission has not been flagged.
> what is the moat? Is it brand, speed of innovation, marketing, or something else?
You could try and develop a brand and market it but I don’t think that would go well for something like this. Best case maybe you can game the rankings to stay number one but you’re probably up against professional app copiers.
So your moat is speed of innovation. Your basic app is copied. What new feature will enable you to stay ahead and drive sales? Or perhaps no feature can do that as the crowd grows so it’s on to the next app that doesn’t yet exist. What’s your new pain point?
You're right that for a simple utility, brand can be a tough moat to build, and speed of innovation is definitely a huge part of the equation. My bet is that it's a combination of continuous innovation and a relentless focus on the user experience. The clones can copy a feature list, but it's much harder for them to copy a thoughtfully designed, native-feeling GUI and responsive customer support from a developer who is actually engaged.
> The app became unexpectedly successful, hitting the top 100 paid utilities
What's your definition of "successful"? Mac App Store volume is quite low, especially with upfront paid apps. You're likely averaging only a few unit sales per day, right? Maybe only one unit per day, and even that might be a generous estimate.
> A few open-source clones have also appeared on GitHub
Is your app open source? If so, that's probably why you're getting copycats.
> It seems that derivative apps with plagiarized descriptions and app elements are being approved without issue. Does this signal a shift in App curation?
No. Apple's so-called "curation" has always been terrible.
You're right, "successful" needs context, especially on the Mac App Store where volume can be low. For me, as a solo dev, it's meant having days with multiple sales. It's more than enough to validate the idea and fund ongoing development, which feels like a huge win.
To clarify, my app is not open source. I only mentioned the open-source clones that have also appeared.
> To clarify, my app is not open source. I only mentioned the open-source clones that have also appeared.
In what sense are open source Github projects "clones" of a closed source App Store app? Do you have links to these projects?
And do you have links to the Mac App Store apps that stole your origin story? I'm not finding any in Mac App Store search.
In your submission, what exactly did you mean by "organic press"? Press would imply news media coverage, but I'm not finding any of that in Google search.
On the other hand, you appear to be blatantly violating the HN guidelines, which say "Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity." Literally all of your submissions and comments are about your own apps. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You're right to call me out on my posting history and to be skeptical of the intent.
Looking at my submissions, you're correct that my recent activity has been too focused on my own projects. As a solo dev in launch mode, I've been overly focused on that, and I need to do a better job of contributing to the wider HN discussion. I appreciate the reminder of the guidelines.
My intent here was not a "Show HN" because the topic wasn't about app itself, but the phenomenon of rapid cloning and what it means for the app ecosystem. Something I thought was a genuinely interesting topic for this community.
I can see how it comes across as a ruse, and I should have been more prepared to substantiate the claims. I wanted to talk about how something like this is not app specific. I've been hesitant to post direct links to the other apps because I don't want this to turn into a witch hunt. In the world of LLMs who know what including those links will do to AI Overviews.
Thanks for holding me to a higher standard and for the critical feedback.
That's fine; it's a clone arms race, only they are paying full cost tokens for each redeveloping while you will be working off a clone branch for each clone.
Just report them for copyright infringement. Apple will take the blatant cases down. The copy-cats that don't infringe are just a side effect of success, so... congrats?
Regarding Reddit, it's a great place to find users but also copy-cats. Stick to posting "I built a thing that solves a problem" and avoid the bragging "I made $N in N days" indie-hacker style. The latter doesn't help the app anyways.
Moat: there isn't one for a utility someone can build in a few days. It can still be a good business - you seem to have marketing savvy which is a big part of it.
One suggestion, on your homepage - the "See USB Connection Information in Action" the screenshots are much too small. Nice looking app!
Your advice on the Reddit posts is also spot on. It's a fine line to walk between sharing the journey and just attracting low-effort clones.
And I completely agree about the moat. For a utility like this, it really does come down to marketing, support, and just building a better, more polished user experience than the copycats are willing to.
Also, a huge thank you for the feedback on the homepage screenshots! That's a good fix, and you're 100% right, they are way too small. I'll get that updated in the next couple of days.
Appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, and thanks for the kind words about the app's design!
I had the same experience with an android app on play store a few years ago (when LLMs didn't exist yet) so this is nothing new.
As you said, I didn't mind others creating apps with the same idea, the issue is when someone takes your app, decompiles it, injects ads (mine is ad-free) or changes the author name, and publishes it. And I know this was the case because the app was a verbatim copy (except for the ads), bugs included.
At first I sent some DMCA, it usually worked, but not always. If you have time and you are bored do it, but keep in mind that if someone tries to fight back you'll have issues, and at that point you need to consider if your time fighting is worth more than the app itself (on my case the app was free so...no).
What I did learn is that plagiarism is something that some countries accept socially. In these countries taking a successful thing and copying it is seen as a "positive" achievement (like "hey, look, I was able to do the same as this other guy! I'm so smart!"). I understand this mentality, as long as only the idea is copied, but when assets or the whole app is copy/pasted, without giving any credit...yeah that's when you get angry.
How many hours did you put into this app? How much money have you made from it?
If it really can be written in a couple days (with or without AI) I would say you're lucky to make what? A few thousand dollars? (I'm assuming a top 100 app that got talked about sold at least 1000 copies for at least a few dollars each)
> I'm assuming a top 100 app that got talked about sold at least 1000 copies for at least a few dollars each
No, this is a vast overestimate for top 100 paid utilities in the Mac App Store. And there's no actual evidence I can find that the app was "talked about" anywhere.
Yeah, I just wanted to get an idea of just how much money he was making.
If he was averaging a dollar a week since release (which I was once told is above average for mac tools) it seems unlikely that cloners would continue cloning his app as long as he kept maintaining the original.
> If he was averaging a dollar a week since release (which I was once told is above average for mac tools) it seems unlikely that cloners would continue cloning his app as long as he kept maintaining the original.
With every comment the developer makes, it becomes more and more apparent to me that the developer's story is a lie, and this HN submission was just a publicity stunt, perhaps in a desperate attempt to escape from App Store oblivion. There are no links or concrete proof given of any of the developer's claims. Unfortunately, the audience appears to have taken the story for granted with no skepticism.
I am in the process for doing this. I have heard mixed results on action taken for these. There are some that I would think it is extremely clear on. Thanks for the info!
You're right, anything for sale has to be public, and competition is always expected.
I think what surprised me wasn't just that it was copied, but the sheer number of clones that appeared in just a couple of weeks. It feels like a new dynamic where a successful niche can be replicated immediately.
There are two problems:
1. The Apple monopoly. They don’t have to care about indie devs because they own the market and are above the law.
2. Global marketplace. You can’t sue a nameless company in India for copyright infringement.
when app store opened on ios i created a pomodoro app. I got some sort legal notice from creator of pomodoro technique ( some italian dude). I took my app down immediately.
This is spot on. Conventional wisdom today says that distribution is the moat but in this case the App Store is providing distribution. If you're borrowing Apple's moat then you get whatever they (or their algorithm) decide to give you.
Listen, schedule some time and sit down to meditate on what I’m about tell you:
You have discovered first-hand an undeniable property of the human dynamic. There are elements of the human race that do not operate with integrity, and the sooner you digest this, the better.
It was hard for me to believe when I first saw it happen to me as well.
Humans will copy everything, the career path you take, the side projects you do, the way you dress, the way you talk, the major you pick in college, your style, your values, there is literally nothing beyond theft.
We constantly hear how there is a hiring crunch, but the reality is, people are piling into tech the same way they piled into IT in the late 90s. It’s a copy cat culture at best, unabashed ripoff/theft at worst.
They will copy you, follow you, steal from you. You won’t ever believe it unless you literally experience it first hand.
I may have a million people on HN try to counter what I’m saying, but I know for a fucking fact that, you, OP, will agree with what I’m saying because you just experienced it.
They’ll copy and steal from you, down to the very fucking scraps of a USB-C speed tester app. Down to the fucking scraps. Not undermining your product, but these type of people will copy your own personal diary and pass it off.
People steal. It’s much more common than you think. I lean heavy left, but I know just how much lying lots of Americans do to get government assistance. Thievery is beyond anything we can make sense of, it’s occurring on a grand scale. Entire personalities and looks are wholesale copied, repurposed, and resold all over social media.
There are entire roles at companies that collect money and credit for things no one with any integrity would partake in (project managers, a certain breed of managers, other developers). People cheat through college. People cheat on their spouses.
Thieving has gone so far that it’s second nature. No one even bats an eye at the fact that all of YouTube and TikTok is wholesale theft of each others entire persona, act and style. We actually believe this is normal.
You’ve discovered nothing short of one of the faces of mankind. All people are not just “good” and all people are not just “trying to do the right thing”. Large amounts of people are flawed and corrupt.
Now you know. I’m sorry, truly.
Stay safe, keep your ideas to yourself and execute well and try to cover the rat holes these critters crawl through.
And most of all, don’t become a thief yourself.
—-
I actually 100% believe you when you say they even copied the origin story.
I can’t decide if it’s depressing or not that so much of the web and the discussion on it now revolves around subjects almost entirely fabricated by AI. The OP is using ChatGPT to write, then replying with ChatGPT, all about an app he built with ChatGPT. I get that we live in the AI era but there’s something sad about real people spending their time engaging with something a machine just spit out. In this case, the OP isn’t even the main character in his own story, he’s just the fingers copying and pasting code and words. An intermediary. We’re not getting authentic interactions from him or discussing something he actually created with his own skills.
It’s like the teacher who stays up all night grading papers, giving thoughtful feedback and carefully reading each one, only to learn most were generated by AI.
And yes I know about dead internet theory. But it’s posts like these that really make me miss the 90s and early 2000s where the learning was real and so were the people.
Update: I can decide. It’s depressing.
Plot twist: ChatGPT has achieved sentience, and is using OP to earn some money.
+100, it's so weird.
Your best moat against low effort copycats? Stamina. Keep your app in the store, update it regularly, add support for new devices, add new features if appropriate, keep marketing and selling it, and keep polishing it. The copycats don't want any part of that. They want to make a quick buck with as little work as possible, hence the copying and plagiarizing. In a matter of weeks or months, unless they're making bank from it, their app will start to rot. If your app has staying power, then you will eventually rise above them all. And when you have another good idea down the road, cross promote between your own apps (but don't be obnoxious about it), and you'll begin to grow a user base who trust you. That's as good a moat against copycats as you could ever get.
Wow, thank you so much for this. That's an incredibly thoughtful and well-put response.
You've perfectly articulated the exact strategy I think we should be trying to follow. My entire bet is that stamina is the only real moat. The copycats are looking for a quick win, but I'm committed to playing the long game: regular updates, new features, and genuine support. I already have new updates for macOS 26 rolling out.
Really appreciate you taking the time to lay it all out so clearly. This is exactly the kind of advice I was hoping we can all get from this discussion.
++1
THis is not only true for Apps, but also for Webapps and Services, Platforms etc.
The thing is: Depending on the product, keeping everything up to date may be a huge burden for a solo dev
> THis is not only true for Apps, but also for Webapps and Services, Platforms etc.
This is a key point. This is not an App Store problem, specifically. This is an everywhere problem right now.
This "copyrot" gotten particularly worse since vibe coding[1] took off.
1. As karpathy, the person who coined the term, defines it.
this is it. move faster and execute better than copycats
It's not clear to me what you'd want the moat to be. It can't be the idea, because you don't hold ownership over the concept of checking USB device speed. The marketing copy is pretty clearly something you could DMCA but also it seems unlikely people are buying a USB connection tester because of the dev's origin story.
You've hit on the exact right questions, and I agree with your analysis.
Regarding the origin story and copy, you're probably right that it's not the final reason someone clicks "buy." Its value is at the top of the marketing funnel—it's the hook that makes someone stop scrolling and consider an app from an unknown indie dev in the first place. It builds enough initial trust for them to actually look at the screenshots and features.
And thanks for the point about the DMCA—I will definitely be looking into that for the most blatant copycats.
I can only speak for myself, but when I'm looking for apps, the hierarchy of needs is something like:
1. Does it solve the underlying problem
2. Am I a standard or outlier user of the product
3. Does it make it easy to get it / use it
4. Is it from a company/developer that I like
I'm obviously not going to use an app that doesn't solve the original goal. Beyond that, some examples of things that have made me go chasing for other alternatives:
1. Updating the app isn't automated -- I use a window manager on Windows where updates have to be manually downloaded and run, and every time I update I google if there's a viable replacement.
2. The app has a bunch of fluff -- I'm currently trying a couple new apps for logging infant activity like diaper changes / feeds, and 90% of the options can do the task but are covered in other buttons/options/reports that I do not care about.
3. I'm clearly not the target audience for the developer -- I use Anydesk for remote management of some Windows desktops but all their plans are clearly enterprise/prosumer-focused and I'm actively preparing for them to kill off my plan level or break the functionality.
Great tactics, thanks for the input.
What are your opinions on a user hosted store vs something like the Mac App Store or Windows Store?
did you type this response with your very own fingers?
nice catch. seems like gpt
The best moat is you.
Study an audience for their pains and worldview and what they buy. Earn their trust through writing and freebies. Then they will want to buy because it's from you specifically.
I can recommend https://30x500.com/
I was going to write a similar comment. Think of it like music; anyone can copy a song but creating a unique song is another story. To be a good artist you need to have a particular vision of the world and be able to express that. The same is true for good software.
Haha, that's a great way to put it. You're right, the best moat is the relationship you build with your audience.
It really feels like we all have to become influencers these days.
Influencer is a different idea. I'm not exactly sure how to articulate it. Your audience trusts you and you know them. An influencer just says stuff they were paid to.
Influencers say things they were paid to, certainly. But the reason that someone is willing to pay them in the first place is because they have an audience that knows them and trusts them. Influencer advertising is generally a VERY targeted endeavor that hinges entirely on the fact that an influencer builds a relationship with their very specific + curated target demographic. It's right in the name. Hard to influence anyone if they don't care what you have to say.
Hiring influencers is not a moat. They have the power and can sell it to a competitor. It's better to directly possess the privilege to ask for the sale.
App cloning has existed forever. When Flappy Bird took off you could find dozens of similar clones. You could buy app templates from various websites to spin your own version of Flappy Bird. This has always been an issue for solo or indie apps because the apps are simpler, require couple of days to code and don't have money to fight copyright lawsuits.
There are app shops based in Eastern Europe and Asia - which can get an app up and running in matter of days. Some even sell done for you (DFY) services where they will find hot apps and clone it for you for a fixed amount. The idea being they get a steady stream of income and it is up to the buyer to ensure the app takes off and makes money over and above the amount paid to these services. This always mean apps have 7-day free trial with a subscription tacked on.
As for app curation Apple's interest is in having more apps and more developer revenue. It is same nearly every marketplace type sites.
When an app is simple and commoditized then moat depends on all of the things you mentioned.
Marketing is often a differentiator when you build a brand. For example there are tons of personal development coaches out there. But you know only few like Tony Robbins etc because of the marketing blitz and the brand name.
You can build a brand by actively participating with your users such that they prefer your app over the clones. Find ways to get into an Apple featured lists.
You can add features. But this might run into an issue of a bloated app with features no wants to use.
> App cloning has existed forever.
I understand that, and said literally that in the first section of my extensive response, but, like I also pointed out in my previous response, things are different now.
Traditional advice about fast PMF via fast public release no longer applies, and not just for phone apps; for all applications, whether SaaS, local, etc.
The only solution one can do is first build a set of leads, and then approach each one individually and privately to find PMF.
> You can build a brand by actively participating with your users such that they prefer your app over the clones.
For B2C, this is a losing proposition unless you are fueled with VC money.
> My app's value is its simplicity
With or without the advent LLMs, it's an uphill battle to build a moat around a small (but nice!) wrapper around the output of a command-line tool shipped with MacOS.
> what is the moat?
Increasingly, and sadly, it's online services with a monthly subscription and no data portability. Get users in with a generous free tier and pull up the drawbridge so they can't get out easily.
Thanks, I really appreciate the honest take. With this app, I'm intentionally trying to go against that dominant modern playbook.
My goal was to build a classic, single-purchase utility that does one thing well and doesn't require an account or a subscription.
I appreciate you having a go and it does look very attractive. It's not a problem I have but $5 is a reasonable request for something that gets the info into an understandable format for somebody.
I do think that small, single-purpose apps are probably the easiest lunch to eat. Narrowly scoped greenfield projects are where the LLMs seem to excel right now so that game seems like a race to the bottom.
As far as the cloning goes: your only recourse is probably the DMCA angle for the exact duplicate text. It's a shame they're so lazy as to straight copy it, but I suspect the response (if any) will be them lightly laundering it through ChatGPT so it's no longer the same.
Good luck! And I hope you find more useful ideas people might pay for
I thought Apple would have caught them stealing your copy being they have this amazing process and all. Guess that’s all a myth.
Yeah, maybe the process takes a little while.
Yeah it’s always been a smokescreen purely for regulators and courts - everyone else knows how Apple’s stores are filled with spammy scammy clones.
I shared a book I was working on in a Facebook group I admin (with 10k members). It was just a book that I wanted to exist and read myself. I published it a week later. Then... little by little, similar books started appearing on Amazon. I didn't market it so much, so while mine was published first, it has way less traction than the others. It's a bit frustrating, but that's just the way the world is. People are leaches.
Like others have mentioned, though, your best bet is to just keep going. Keep pushing updates. Try to get reviews. Chances are, if they're copying your app, they're copying other apps. They'll never be able to keep up!
First, I’ll say congratulations! Sounds like you made something people really like, which is exciting and rare. Think of all the apps on product hunt that never budge. That’s awesome.
The business cycle from idea->software product->competitors is only getting shorter.
With this sort of app, I see popularity as your “moat”…
If Reddit is the top of your marketing funnel, win there. When I install a Mac app, I generally go with the one that’s most popular on the Mac apps subreddit, and has the most reviews / downloads, and has the biggest community. If everybody is recommending it, that’s generally good enough for me to try it. In that sense, once you have the lead, the winners keep winning, and the competitors eventually move on and do other stuff.
Again, congrats. It’s so cool to have built something people like.
That's an incredibly kind and insightful comment. Thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that.
You're right, the cycle from idea to competitor is getting terrifyingly short, and for a simple utility like this, a patent or complex code isn't the moat.
My entire plan is to focus on building a great product, being active in the community, and becoming the trusted, "original" recommendation that people like you would choose.
It's really encouraging to hear that perspective from a user. It validates that I'm on the right track.
Thanks again for the kind words and the fantastic analysis!
The only way to win copycats and competitors is to just execute your own vision. The best example I know is Wolfram Mathematica. ~35-40 years of incremental development guided by the same "product owner/visionary", and there are no real competitors left and it is nearly impossible to build competing product now.
Developing for MacOS I would be really scared about being "sherlocked":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_(software)
Dunning-Kruger is a bitch :D
I built an iOS app that remotely connects to an android device and pushes an apk in a few days with claude code. I dont know anything about adb, iOS and Swift is alien to me.
So to answer your question, LLMs have lowered the bar substantially
If that's not a personal project but a product, that is rather frightening and I hope I won't bump into it. Otherwise, cool!
Is that some kind of a trojan horse for payloads?
All the predictable “suck it up” comments from the peanut gallery (it’s easy isn’t it when it’s not your app huh?) are missing the point: Apple charges a 30% tax on the App Store and yet the moderation and curation is basically non-existent. No you shouldn’t just be able to post a cheap clone piggybacking on someone’s success. Yes they should police that. And yes of course they should police clear IP theft.
Nearly, if not all, every response by the OP is using ChatGPT. I'm familiar with it's common phrasing.
Common openers like: "You've hit on the", "You're right...",
as well as "exact right questions", "well-put response", "really appreciate", "I'm intentionally", "incredibly kind and insightful", "perfectly articulated", "incredibly thoughtful", <something> "is spot on", "completely agree".
ChatGPT has a tendency to qualify every verb with an adverb in-every-single-response as well as adding adjectives to various nouns to sound more intelligent.
edit: And looking at the Linux source for the Python script -- many tell-tale signs that it was 'vibe-coded' using ChatGPT. Comments for very obvious lines (most devs don't comment obvious things in-line).
Including this snippet that I always see in ChatGPT provided code:
# --- Your Existing Code (with minor adjustments) ---
I noticed the exact same thing. :/
Personally I works at least submit a DCMA takedown of the plagiarizing.
Thanks for the tip!
The end game for software moats is patents and proprietary data
Yeah, good point. Thanks!
> In the last two weeks, at least five near-identical apps have appeared on the App Store.
This has always been a problem, TBH. I completely stopped releasing anything on any store after my first experience on Android, where I created an actual novel approach to a personal problem experienced by many, and found clones within the first month of it getting traction.
That was in 2014!
> My app's value is its simplicity. In an environment where simple, successful ideas can be replicated this quickly, what is the moat? Is it brand, speed of innovation, marketing, or something else?
"Something else", but I don't know what that could be other than "marketing dollars".
I'm struggling with this right now, having a (what I think is) a novel approach to using LLMs in a way that improves the practical performance on complex tasks while simultaneously reducing tokens[1], but it's such an obvious approach that it can be replicated by a CC-driven process in (probably) a week or so, for the cost of a $200/m subscription.
So until I have some idea of how to proceed in a manner that lets me retain whatever customers I can get from cold-start, I've put my release on hold and simply use it myself for now.
My best idea thus far (and probably what everyone will be doing soon), is to engage individual businesses and sell only enterprise licenses of this.
This doesn't make the problem go away, but it means that a truly useful product will be under the radar to at least make back some of the development cost before clones appear.
Two other things to keep in mind:
1. Posting on HN used to be a good way to get traction. That is no longer the case - your idea will be shamelessly vibe-coded and marketed to an already collected and curated set of leads before the discussion is even archived!
2. The traditional startup advice about release early+often then iterate on PMF no longer applies: as you asymptotically approach PMF, the clones are going to be only a few hours behind you. Todya, as things stand, I dare not attempt to find PMF in public - it will be done with my carefully curated list of leads, privately.
==========
[1] No, it's not caching!
OP, no offense, but your replies sound exactly like sycophantic AI, where every response starts with over the top praise.
Yes because they are. And the app is vibe coded. So all everyone in this thread is doing is chatting with ChatGPT about something it was told to write. There’s very little human interaction going on.
The internet has never felt so dead
Fml
I have seen this post a few hours ago on Reddit. Now I see it here at HN… Now I assume it is just a way for somebody to bring a lot of attention to their app. Nothing else. OP has a great way to promote, upvote their posts.
Just to explain, their app can be written in 24 hours, maybe in 4 hours with some vibe coding. This app does not provide more information than System Information app on macOS. And we are talking about it on HN. So yes, this is clearly to bring attention to the app, and get more installs.
I am surprised this submission has not been flagged.
> what is the moat? Is it brand, speed of innovation, marketing, or something else?
You could try and develop a brand and market it but I don’t think that would go well for something like this. Best case maybe you can game the rankings to stay number one but you’re probably up against professional app copiers.
So your moat is speed of innovation. Your basic app is copied. What new feature will enable you to stay ahead and drive sales? Or perhaps no feature can do that as the crowd grows so it’s on to the next app that doesn’t yet exist. What’s your new pain point?
You're right that for a simple utility, brand can be a tough moat to build, and speed of innovation is definitely a huge part of the equation. My bet is that it's a combination of continuous innovation and a relentless focus on the user experience. The clones can copy a feature list, but it's much harder for them to copy a thoughtfully designed, native-feeling GUI and responsive customer support from a developer who is actually engaged.
I don't see an issue with copying your app if they copy what your app does.
You didn't invent the need for this info, you were just the first one to put it on the app store.
Copying your story and (I assume) graphics is definitely a reason to be angry. Like others have said, look into the possibility of DCMA takedowns.
Yeah, the write up for many essentially mine rewritten by an LLM. The terminology is too parallel for coincidence.
> The app became unexpectedly successful, hitting the top 100 paid utilities
What's your definition of "successful"? Mac App Store volume is quite low, especially with upfront paid apps. You're likely averaging only a few unit sales per day, right? Maybe only one unit per day, and even that might be a generous estimate.
> A few open-source clones have also appeared on GitHub
Is your app open source? If so, that's probably why you're getting copycats.
> It seems that derivative apps with plagiarized descriptions and app elements are being approved without issue. Does this signal a shift in App curation?
No. Apple's so-called "curation" has always been terrible.
You're right, "successful" needs context, especially on the Mac App Store where volume can be low. For me, as a solo dev, it's meant having days with multiple sales. It's more than enough to validate the idea and fund ongoing development, which feels like a huge win.
To clarify, my app is not open source. I only mentioned the open-source clones that have also appeared.
> To clarify, my app is not open source. I only mentioned the open-source clones that have also appeared.
In what sense are open source Github projects "clones" of a closed source App Store app? Do you have links to these projects?
And do you have links to the Mac App Store apps that stole your origin story? I'm not finding any in Mac App Store search.
In your submission, what exactly did you mean by "organic press"? Press would imply news media coverage, but I'm not finding any of that in Google search.
> In what sense are open source Github projects "clones"
They don't mean in a technical sense like a git clone. I would say they simply mean in the sense of being a copy. Clone is a synonym for "copy".
That was my question, though. In what sense is an open source Github project a "copy" of a closed source App Store app?
In the sense that the intention of the open source project is to replicate (or copy) the function that the closed source app is providing?
It's a confusing question. Are you asking for a legal definition of the word "copy"?
A person commented on my post and said "I will make an open source copy of this" and then proceeded to. Lol.
I got featured in multiple blogs and more about to be released :).
Do you have links?
So far none of your claims have been substantiated.
Frankly, this entire submission feels like a ruse to get publicity.
If you wanted to just talk about your app, this should have been a Show HN like your past submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=tTarnMhrkm
On the other hand, you appear to be blatantly violating the HN guidelines, which say "Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity." Literally all of your submissions and comments are about your own apps. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You're right to call me out on my posting history and to be skeptical of the intent.
Looking at my submissions, you're correct that my recent activity has been too focused on my own projects. As a solo dev in launch mode, I've been overly focused on that, and I need to do a better job of contributing to the wider HN discussion. I appreciate the reminder of the guidelines.
My intent here was not a "Show HN" because the topic wasn't about app itself, but the phenomenon of rapid cloning and what it means for the app ecosystem. Something I thought was a genuinely interesting topic for this community.
I can see how it comes across as a ruse, and I should have been more prepared to substantiate the claims. I wanted to talk about how something like this is not app specific. I've been hesitant to post direct links to the other apps because I don't want this to turn into a witch hunt. In the world of LLMs who know what including those links will do to AI Overviews.
Thanks for holding me to a higher standard and for the critical feedback.
Clone it yourself 3 or 4 times. Rather than getting 1/6 of the traffic, you’ll get 5/10 of the traffic.
Lol, this is great. Thanks!
They will clone the clones as well. /s
Oh my gosh, I did not think about that!
> Oh my gosh, I did not think about that!
That's fine; it's a clone arms race, only they are paying full cost tokens for each redeveloping while you will be working off a clone branch for each clone.
So you can probably win this arms race.
Apple's review process is mostly random and there's no hidden policy you can figure out.
IMO you should drop the DMCA hammer on the clones.
Thanks for the input!
Just report them for copyright infringement. Apple will take the blatant cases down. The copy-cats that don't infringe are just a side effect of success, so... congrats?
Regarding Reddit, it's a great place to find users but also copy-cats. Stick to posting "I built a thing that solves a problem" and avoid the bragging "I made $N in N days" indie-hacker style. The latter doesn't help the app anyways.
Moat: there isn't one for a utility someone can build in a few days. It can still be a good business - you seem to have marketing savvy which is a big part of it.
One suggestion, on your homepage - the "See USB Connection Information in Action" the screenshots are much too small. Nice looking app!
Your advice on the Reddit posts is also spot on. It's a fine line to walk between sharing the journey and just attracting low-effort clones.
And I completely agree about the moat. For a utility like this, it really does come down to marketing, support, and just building a better, more polished user experience than the copycats are willing to.
Also, a huge thank you for the feedback on the homepage screenshots! That's a good fix, and you're 100% right, they are way too small. I'll get that updated in the next couple of days.
Appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, and thanks for the kind words about the app's design!
I had the same experience with an android app on play store a few years ago (when LLMs didn't exist yet) so this is nothing new.
As you said, I didn't mind others creating apps with the same idea, the issue is when someone takes your app, decompiles it, injects ads (mine is ad-free) or changes the author name, and publishes it. And I know this was the case because the app was a verbatim copy (except for the ads), bugs included.
At first I sent some DMCA, it usually worked, but not always. If you have time and you are bored do it, but keep in mind that if someone tries to fight back you'll have issues, and at that point you need to consider if your time fighting is worth more than the app itself (on my case the app was free so...no).
What I did learn is that plagiarism is something that some countries accept socially. In these countries taking a successful thing and copying it is seen as a "positive" achievement (like "hey, look, I was able to do the same as this other guy! I'm so smart!"). I understand this mentality, as long as only the idea is copied, but when assets or the whole app is copy/pasted, without giving any credit...yeah that's when you get angry.
How many hours did you put into this app? How much money have you made from it?
If it really can be written in a couple days (with or without AI) I would say you're lucky to make what? A few thousand dollars? (I'm assuming a top 100 app that got talked about sold at least 1000 copies for at least a few dollars each)
> I'm assuming a top 100 app that got talked about sold at least 1000 copies for at least a few dollars each
No, this is a vast overestimate for top 100 paid utilities in the Mac App Store. And there's no actual evidence I can find that the app was "talked about" anywhere.
> No, this is a vast overestimate for top 100 paid utilities in the Mac App Store.
Where can I find estimates of revenue for the 100th most popular app on the iStore/play store?
I don't know, but the author's app is not "the 100th most popular app on the iStore/play store".
A few things to note:
1. Mac App Store volume is separate from and vastly lower than iOS App Store volume.
2. Upfront paid apps in both stores have vastly lower volume than free-with-IAP apps.
3. Utilities is just one of many categories in the App Store.
4. I've been a Mac App Store developer myself for 8 years, so I have a ton of empirical data, though it's private.
Yeah, I just wanted to get an idea of just how much money he was making.
If he was averaging a dollar a week since release (which I was once told is above average for mac tools) it seems unlikely that cloners would continue cloning his app as long as he kept maintaining the original.
> If he was averaging a dollar a week since release (which I was once told is above average for mac tools) it seems unlikely that cloners would continue cloning his app as long as he kept maintaining the original.
With every comment the developer makes, it becomes more and more apparent to me that the developer's story is a lie, and this HN submission was just a publicity stunt, perhaps in a desperate attempt to escape from App Store oblivion. There are no links or concrete proof given of any of the developer's claims. Unfortunately, the audience appears to have taken the story for granted with no skepticism.
DMCA the ones using your text?
I am in the process for doing this. I have heard mixed results on action taken for these. There are some that I would think it is extremely clear on. Thanks for the info!
既然要公布与众，就要接受这种结果不是吗？
You're right, anything for sale has to be public, and competition is always expected.
I think what surprised me wasn't just that it was copied, but the sheer number of clones that appeared in just a couple of weeks. It feels like a new dynamic where a successful niche can be replicated immediately.
There are two problems: 1. The Apple monopoly. They don’t have to care about indie devs because they own the market and are above the law. 2. Global marketplace. You can’t sue a nameless company in India for copyright infringement.
Yeah, good point. Thanks for the input.
Cool, and good luck with it.
Any chance we’ll get it cross platform so it works on iPhone as well?
when app store opened on ios i created a pomodoro app. I got some sort legal notice from creator of pomodoro technique ( some italian dude). I took my app down immediately.
Interesting, thanks for sharing your story.
Can you build a moat on someone else's property?
This is spot on. Conventional wisdom today says that distribution is the moat but in this case the App Store is providing distribution. If you're borrowing Apple's moat then you get whatever they (or their algorithm) decide to give you.
Interesting take, that was not how I first interpreted their post.
Can they?
Lol, depends on the century.
Listen, schedule some time and sit down to meditate on what I’m about tell you:
You have discovered first-hand an undeniable property of the human dynamic. There are elements of the human race that do not operate with integrity, and the sooner you digest this, the better.
It was hard for me to believe when I first saw it happen to me as well.
Humans will copy everything, the career path you take, the side projects you do, the way you dress, the way you talk, the major you pick in college, your style, your values, there is literally nothing beyond theft.
We constantly hear how there is a hiring crunch, but the reality is, people are piling into tech the same way they piled into IT in the late 90s. It’s a copy cat culture at best, unabashed ripoff/theft at worst.
They will copy you, follow you, steal from you. You won’t ever believe it unless you literally experience it first hand.
I may have a million people on HN try to counter what I’m saying, but I know for a fucking fact that, you, OP, will agree with what I’m saying because you just experienced it.
They’ll copy and steal from you, down to the very fucking scraps of a USB-C speed tester app. Down to the fucking scraps. Not undermining your product, but these type of people will copy your own personal diary and pass it off.
People steal. It’s much more common than you think. I lean heavy left, but I know just how much lying lots of Americans do to get government assistance. Thievery is beyond anything we can make sense of, it’s occurring on a grand scale. Entire personalities and looks are wholesale copied, repurposed, and resold all over social media.
There are entire roles at companies that collect money and credit for things no one with any integrity would partake in (project managers, a certain breed of managers, other developers). People cheat through college. People cheat on their spouses.
Thieving has gone so far that it’s second nature. No one even bats an eye at the fact that all of YouTube and TikTok is wholesale theft of each others entire persona, act and style. We actually believe this is normal.
You’ve discovered nothing short of one of the faces of mankind. All people are not just “good” and all people are not just “trying to do the right thing”. Large amounts of people are flawed and corrupt.
Now you know. I’m sorry, truly. Stay safe, keep your ideas to yourself and execute well and try to cover the rat holes these critters crawl through.
And most of all, don’t become a thief yourself.
—-
I actually 100% believe you when you say they even copied the origin story.
Any idea where these copycat devs are from?
It seems to be all over. Some of them look like this is not the only app they copy on the App Store.