Older people in the UK already have free bus passes and various other substantial concessions regarding public transport. Cars are dangerous, and if you can't see clearly, you're obviously not fit to drive. It's true that there will be negative impacts on people who will fail the eye tests, and we should be compassionate, but ultimately those people aren't safe behind the wheel, and put other peoples lives at risk, not just their own.
The practical details of implementing this are important - is the eye test done at an ordinary optician/optometrist's shop? How are the results going to be submitted to DVLA, etc.? What protections will be in place to prevent people from shopping around for a dodgy optician (as people often do with cars and MOTs)?
I think this is a reasonable and practical step in the right direction. I accept that given the shortage of driving examiners it would be impossible to require re-testing of existing drivers in the foreseeable future, but as the article says, people already get eye tests frequently and often for free, so this is something that can be done without too much additional infrastructure.
A personal anecdote: my grandfather is in his 90s and is not at all fit to drive due to cataracts and various other issues, but he still does "short journeys" because it's convenient and he feels that it's necessary. The UK has plenty of public transport options and places where people can live with amenities close by (though this is not at all universal). Most British towns and cities are very different from their US counterparts in this respect. My grandfather moved house relatively recently --in full knowledge that the house he chose would benefit from car ownership, and in full knowledge about his age. The only thing that will stop him and others like him from putting people in danger is taking away his licence. He has been told by doctors, opticians and family members that he's not safe to drive, but in the absence of any enforcement he persists. I hope that this policy comes in before he or someone else gets hurt.
My mother completely stopped driving in her early 70s... thank god for the Swiss medical driving fitness test! (now at 75 instead of 70?) she was perfectly fine with it, online food order+delivery had become available, and her immediate neighbors were loving people helping her whenever I+siblings were not easily available.
Unfortunately what is needed are tests of driving ability. Most over-70s are significantly worse than the average driver and some are so dangerous they shouldn't be on the road at all.
Politically very difficult to take people's licences away though, especially when it's permanent, not their fault and it makes their life a lot worse.
driving in downtown Austin this morning, the waymo swarm is real. the US may not have robust public transit but why can't we subsidize ride shares for seniors who lose their ability to drive safely?
> Drivers in the UK must be able to read a number plate from 20 metres away, according to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).
Unless I've botched the math and/or what the internet tells me about the size of the characters on a UK number plate is wrong this seems to be a bit overboard.
The internet is telling me that the characters are 79mm tall and 50mm wide (except for '1' and 'I') with a 14mm stroke.
My eyes right now are about 250mm from my monitor. Something that is 79mm tall and 20m away would have the same angular size as something 250mm away that is 79mm / 20m x 250mm = 0.9875mm tall.
If I set the size to 75% in Chrome that is the size of the numbers on this page in the timestamps and the submission points and comment counts. It is about 1/2 the size of the numbers in the text box that I'm writing this comment in.
I've just taken a photo of that and will include a link to it to show how small that is [1]. In that I'm holding a ruler next to the left side of the text. The "180" up where it says "180 points" is what you have to be able to read to pass the test. (If you can't see the photo because Imgur blocks your country just grab a ruler, hold it vertically 25cm in front of you, and the apparent size of the space between the mm marks is the size character you need to read).
I have no idea what road signs and markings are like in the UK, but in the US in ~50 years of driving I don't think I've ever needed to read anything anywhere near that small.
In addition to eye tests every few years for all drivers, we should also address other impediments to safe driving, such as blue high-intensity headlights and glare from other sources, including many streetlights and security lighting.
Proper nighttime lighting goes a long way to improving road safety for all drivers.
> Drivers in the UK must be able to read a number plate from 20 metres away, according to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).
I would like to see better tests. I have a pet theory that visual perception deficiencies along the lines of simultanagnosia are considerably more common among older people than is generally recognized, and people with these conditions may be able to easily read letters and numbers at a distance but be unable to drive safely due to inability to reliably detect obstacles.
Visual screening is fairly easy and every bit as quick, but it needs different tests. Something along the lines of an Ishihara plate but with colors that are perceptible even to color blind people might work. Or a visually busy image with instructions to identify one or two particular objects in the scene.
As a neurologist that certifies driving ability in 80+ yo people, I would say vision is only one factor. Motor dexterity, fresh reflexes and mental capacity are equally or more important but they are not quantified.
A friend of mine who was cycling in his 60s got hit by a driver in his 80s, taking his regular route to church, but apparently not very observantly. The cyclist was thankfully able to recover.
Does any country have a good system? In Norway it used to be your doctor taking away your license. But that didn't turn out too well. People need to be able to tell their doctor about their issues without fear of "retaliation", and doing it would of course damage the relationship going forward.
So I'm all for doing it, too many old people that shouldn't be on the road, but unsure how.
- Self driving vehicles are truly vs theoretically safer than humans or at least the average 70 year old.
- Self driving vehicles can be attained or reliably rented for an itsy bitsy teenie weenie fraction of a seniors monthly stipend or pension or disability. Reliably meaning no waiting line or shortages of rental self driving cars or vans.
What I’m getting from this discussion is that maybe we should just make this universal, rather than picking an arbitrary age. Too onerous, perhaps, but under-70s definitely can experience serious decline in eyesight.
Hmm? Where I live you have to renew your license (basically pass a few medical exams) every 10 years since the day you get your first license. Why wait until 70?
> Nearly one in four car drivers killed in 2024 were aged 70 or older, according to government figures.
So, somewhat less than 25%. Let's guess 23% or whatever.
What are the age demographics? According to 2024 stats, 19.7% of the UK was aged 65 or older. 17% in the 0-14 age range.
Thus 65-year-olds and older make up 23.7% of the population older than 14.
It seems, roughly, as if the proportion of 70-year-olds and older might be more or less in line with their representation in the driving age population.
It's not the statistics we need, but close enough to defeat the alarmist idea of OMG, a whopping quarter (almost) fatalities are 70+; get the old buggers off the roads!
Why pick on the over-70s though? Most drivers in the UK either can't see or don't bother looking, so we should be demanding higher standards of all drivers.
Older people in the UK already have free bus passes and various other substantial concessions regarding public transport. Cars are dangerous, and if you can't see clearly, you're obviously not fit to drive. It's true that there will be negative impacts on people who will fail the eye tests, and we should be compassionate, but ultimately those people aren't safe behind the wheel, and put other peoples lives at risk, not just their own.
The practical details of implementing this are important - is the eye test done at an ordinary optician/optometrist's shop? How are the results going to be submitted to DVLA, etc.? What protections will be in place to prevent people from shopping around for a dodgy optician (as people often do with cars and MOTs)?
I think this is a reasonable and practical step in the right direction. I accept that given the shortage of driving examiners it would be impossible to require re-testing of existing drivers in the foreseeable future, but as the article says, people already get eye tests frequently and often for free, so this is something that can be done without too much additional infrastructure.
A personal anecdote: my grandfather is in his 90s and is not at all fit to drive due to cataracts and various other issues, but he still does "short journeys" because it's convenient and he feels that it's necessary. The UK has plenty of public transport options and places where people can live with amenities close by (though this is not at all universal). Most British towns and cities are very different from their US counterparts in this respect. My grandfather moved house relatively recently --in full knowledge that the house he chose would benefit from car ownership, and in full knowledge about his age. The only thing that will stop him and others like him from putting people in danger is taking away his licence. He has been told by doctors, opticians and family members that he's not safe to drive, but in the absence of any enforcement he persists. I hope that this policy comes in before he or someone else gets hurt.
To inform the thread, UK accident statistics from 2024 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casua...
In South Africa, all drivers are subject to an eye retest every 5 years, regardless of age. What the UK is doing seems pretty sane IMO.
My mother completely stopped driving in her early 70s... thank god for the Swiss medical driving fitness test! (now at 75 instead of 70?) she was perfectly fine with it, online food order+delivery had become available, and her immediate neighbors were loving people helping her whenever I+siblings were not easily available.
Unfortunately what is needed are tests of driving ability. Most over-70s are significantly worse than the average driver and some are so dangerous they shouldn't be on the road at all.
Politically very difficult to take people's licences away though, especially when it's permanent, not their fault and it makes their life a lot worse.
driving in downtown Austin this morning, the waymo swarm is real. the US may not have robust public transit but why can't we subsidize ride shares for seniors who lose their ability to drive safely?
> Drivers in the UK must be able to read a number plate from 20 metres away, according to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).
Unless I've botched the math and/or what the internet tells me about the size of the characters on a UK number plate is wrong this seems to be a bit overboard.
The internet is telling me that the characters are 79mm tall and 50mm wide (except for '1' and 'I') with a 14mm stroke.
My eyes right now are about 250mm from my monitor. Something that is 79mm tall and 20m away would have the same angular size as something 250mm away that is 79mm / 20m x 250mm = 0.9875mm tall.
If I set the size to 75% in Chrome that is the size of the numbers on this page in the timestamps and the submission points and comment counts. It is about 1/2 the size of the numbers in the text box that I'm writing this comment in.
I've just taken a photo of that and will include a link to it to show how small that is [1]. In that I'm holding a ruler next to the left side of the text. The "180" up where it says "180 points" is what you have to be able to read to pass the test. (If you can't see the photo because Imgur blocks your country just grab a ruler, hold it vertically 25cm in front of you, and the apparent size of the space between the mm marks is the size character you need to read).
I have no idea what road signs and markings are like in the UK, but in the US in ~50 years of driving I don't think I've ever needed to read anything anywhere near that small.
[1] https://imgur.com/a/NGuPdfF
In addition to eye tests every few years for all drivers, we should also address other impediments to safe driving, such as blue high-intensity headlights and glare from other sources, including many streetlights and security lighting.
Proper nighttime lighting goes a long way to improving road safety for all drivers.
> Drivers in the UK must be able to read a number plate from 20 metres away, according to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA).
I would like to see better tests. I have a pet theory that visual perception deficiencies along the lines of simultanagnosia are considerably more common among older people than is generally recognized, and people with these conditions may be able to easily read letters and numbers at a distance but be unable to drive safely due to inability to reliably detect obstacles.
Visual screening is fairly easy and every bit as quick, but it needs different tests. Something along the lines of an Ishihara plate but with colors that are perceptible even to color blind people might work. Or a visually busy image with instructions to identify one or two particular objects in the scene.
As a neurologist that certifies driving ability in 80+ yo people, I would say vision is only one factor. Motor dexterity, fresh reflexes and mental capacity are equally or more important but they are not quantified.
A friend of mine who was cycling in his 60s got hit by a driver in his 80s, taking his regular route to church, but apparently not very observantly. The cyclist was thankfully able to recover.
Does any country have a good system? In Norway it used to be your doctor taking away your license. But that didn't turn out too well. People need to be able to tell their doctor about their issues without fear of "retaliation", and doing it would of course damage the relationship going forward.
So I'm all for doing it, too many old people that shouldn't be on the road, but unsure how.
How about stall this in courts until:
- Self driving vehicles are truly vs theoretically safer than humans or at least the average 70 year old.
- Self driving vehicles can be attained or reliably rented for an itsy bitsy teenie weenie fraction of a seniors monthly stipend or pension or disability. Reliably meaning no waiting line or shortages of rental self driving cars or vans.
https://archive.ph/yjDN0
It sould be every year. Over 70 shouldn’t drive in my opinion. I’m in my 50s and still believe this.
What I’m getting from this discussion is that maybe we should just make this universal, rather than picking an arbitrary age. Too onerous, perhaps, but under-70s definitely can experience serious decline in eyesight.
I think everyone should do a re-test every 10 years then maybe 5 years after 70.
Hmm? Where I live you have to renew your license (basically pass a few medical exams) every 10 years since the day you get your first license. Why wait until 70?
I wonder if there are non optical visual tests, like cognitive ability to perceive multiple details at once.
Waymo is the answer to all our problems
Gonna suck to lose your license when you live in outer places like Roadhead, Carlisle. :(
In Italy (and EU perhaps?) is every year from 70 onwards
How about testing people in a driving simulator?
Let's examine this:
> Nearly one in four car drivers killed in 2024 were aged 70 or older, according to government figures.
So, somewhat less than 25%. Let's guess 23% or whatever.
What are the age demographics? According to 2024 stats, 19.7% of the UK was aged 65 or older. 17% in the 0-14 age range.
Thus 65-year-olds and older make up 23.7% of the population older than 14.
It seems, roughly, as if the proportion of 70-year-olds and older might be more or less in line with their representation in the driving age population.
It's not the statistics we need, but close enough to defeat the alarmist idea of OMG, a whopping quarter (almost) fatalities are 70+; get the old buggers off the roads!
[flagged]
Why pick on the over-70s though? Most drivers in the UK either can't see or don't bother looking, so we should be demanding higher standards of all drivers.