I felt, like some of the other commenters, that I was close to buying the book, but that the sample on Amazon wasn't helping to support a buying decision.
But thankfully the bibliography is given on the book's Web site in full, so I just checked if the most important paper on the history of early LISP [1] was cited or not. It wasn't, so I'm going to pass on ordering the book's first edition.
Great endeavour. Land of lisp is still one of my favourite alternative programming books.
One thing about the sample. Is there a chance to get a glimpse of a random chapter you like a lot? Most of it seems to be foreword/acknowledgement and a bit on "what is lisp" which I suspect most who are attracted might already know.
> Is there a chance to get a glimpse of a random chapter you like a lot?
+1, I'm this close of ordering the hard-cover version, but really hesitant when there is zero samples, not even a page or two, makes it really hard to have any sort of expectation and figuring out if the price is worth it or not.
Yeah, it's one of the things that I wanted to do and then I was undecided which chapter to pick. But your criticism is valid, I'll pick a chapter and cut it out from the PDF and put it up hopefully later tonight (EST). Watch this space and don't hesitate to prod me :)
I have some feedbak, nothing major, but I would say that a professional designer could help you improve the book cover. Right now somebody with professional experience in graphic design --or a good eye for design-- can probably see details in it that could be improved. It's a pity if you have worked on this for five years, not to present it in the best possible way.
Definitely don't worry too much about it. I did not want to sound negative, it's just the first thing that came to mind as feedback. I haven't had the time to read the book, only had time to look at the cover, haha. :D
When one learns about graphic design, one ends up obsessing about these kinds of things. "These text lines need a tiny little bit more of space"... "Those margins are slighly too small"...
It's just job conditioning... At some point in my life I was playing the game of trying to recognize the fonts I was looking at in the adds and signs as I walking down the street.
I know. And frankly, I'm not even the worst coder when it comes to graphic design. I know enough to see that _something_ is off with the cover, but not enough to figure out what ;-).
There are some details about the typeface, layout, and the photograph that, as somebody with a certain background in graphic design, I can perceive as a little bit off.
I think it is worth noting that Richard P. Gabriel wrote the forward to the book in question, and he quotes Guy L. Steele in that forward -- from the paper that you are suggesting the author might like.
Or you mean he'll probably already know about the paper? Yes, I guess that's probably the case...
I did not think about it too much to be honest, I just knew that article and thought that he would really like it if he had not read it. But I can imagine somebody writing a book on the history of Lisp has already read probably all articles around on the topic.
Yup, I know of that paper. The amount of (not or partly acknowledged) reading I've done for the book borders on the insane so I do welcome these suggestions, I've forgotten 80% of what I read and learning what others value helps me put together a "you really should revisit this" list :)
This one is similar but about Haskell, and is quite interesting as well: 'A history of Haskell: being lazy with class' by Paul Hudak, Simon Peyton Jones et al. https://doi.org/10.1145/1238844.1238856
I skimmed the index but… no Clojure? My impression is that it is by far the most used current Lisp. This said, I’d love to read the book - definitely interesting.
Sounds very cool. I've dabbled with Lisp on and off since the mid-80's, starting with a text adventure in LISP-80 on a Kaypro 4, and though I've never written a serious project in Lisp I've learned a great deal from it. (Wrote a lot of TCL code once upon a time; I've always thought of TCL as a Lisp in which you do a lot of things backwards.)
Great book, I will definitely buy it, thanks for your work! The history is very important, as you’ve said in your blog post, but companies and universities don’t care much about such things unfortunately. I see there is a chapter on Clojure, so just wondering if you had the chance to interview Rich Hickey for the book?
No, I didn't. I probably should have, but the sheer magnitude of the project ran off with all my good ideas :). There's already a bunch of things I want to add in a second edition, if that ever happens, there are just so many stories to tell and only so much time.
.
This is a nice and unexpected release, thanks for writing it. Getting a RPG endorsement is great. I just finished reading his foreword and skimming the table of contents and bibliography from the preview. I'd have liked to see a sample of a middle chapter to really see how technical and deep it gets (e.g. Land of Lisp gives its chapter 8 as a sample which I think is very representative for that book). But I plan to get this book regardless -- just not right now.
The back blurb hints that expert systems might be mentioned, but how much? No one ever seems to go much into their implementation or usage.[0] It also mentions writing some JS, which I guess is part of chapter 5, I wonder if that was a publisher request. (My favorite take on that subject in recent years is https://github.com/jart/sectorlisp)
Would it be fair to say this is mainly a history told through the lens of AI and PL research?
Amusingly I think part of me is already setting myself up for some disappointment -- it seems too short with too few references! But it's good to have a Lisp history book like this looks to be and I'm sure I'll learn things from it, and the promise of more RPG writings inside is enticing. Besides, any complete telling would take multiple books. (There's so much of historical interest locked up in proprietary applications and companies with their own histories, and so many papers published, there's also so much that can be dug through in the standardization mailing list (and other lists, like emacs) archives[1], the SAIL archives[2], the Xerox PARC archives[3], the CMU archives[4], and the many undigitized things sitting in boxes at the computer history museum...[5])
[5] Even in the earliest Lisp reports like https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42766480_Artificial... there are interesting things mentioned like a two-move checkmate program or "Other projects on which work continues include the Advice Taker, visual pattern recognition, and an artificial hand." Multiple times I've tried to track down those sorts of things mentioned in really old papers only to hit dead-ends on so many of them. Sometimes things were embellished, or were abandoned, or were just lost to time, and sometimes there's an undigitized box at the museum that might contain printouts etc. (There might be MYCIN source code, even.)
It's Cees de Groot! Or "Carpe Grootem" as my brain has called him for years. I remember his contributions to the Squeak community from back in the day.
I felt, like some of the other commenters, that I was close to buying the book, but that the sample on Amazon wasn't helping to support a buying decision.
But thankfully the bibliography is given on the book's Web site in full, so I just checked if the most important paper on the history of early LISP [1] was cited or not. It wasn't, so I'm going to pass on ordering the book's first edition.
[1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/800055.802047
Thanks for sharing that paper, I didn't know about it. It looks really interesting.
Great endeavour. Land of lisp is still one of my favourite alternative programming books.
One thing about the sample. Is there a chance to get a glimpse of a random chapter you like a lot? Most of it seems to be foreword/acknowledgement and a bit on "what is lisp" which I suspect most who are attracted might already know.
> Is there a chance to get a glimpse of a random chapter you like a lot?
+1, I'm this close of ordering the hard-cover version, but really hesitant when there is zero samples, not even a page or two, makes it really hard to have any sort of expectation and figuring out if the price is worth it or not.
Yeah, it's one of the things that I wanted to do and then I was undecided which chapter to pick. But your criticism is valid, I'll pick a chapter and cut it out from the PDF and put it up hopefully later tonight (EST). Watch this space and don't hesitate to prod me :)
I have some feedbak, nothing major, but I would say that a professional designer could help you improve the book cover. Right now somebody with professional experience in graphic design --or a good eye for design-- can probably see details in it that could be improved. It's a pity if you have worked on this for five years, not to present it in the best possible way.
Yup. I'm not happy with the design. Some promised assistance fell through and so I had to scramble last minute. I've seen worse though :)
(Specific tips on improving the current design welcome, most stores allow edits)
Definitely don't worry too much about it. I did not want to sound negative, it's just the first thing that came to mind as feedback. I haven't had the time to read the book, only had time to look at the cover, haha. :D
When one learns about graphic design, one ends up obsessing about these kinds of things. "These text lines need a tiny little bit more of space"... "Those margins are slighly too small"...
It's just job conditioning... At some point in my life I was playing the game of trying to recognize the fonts I was looking at in the adds and signs as I walking down the street.
I know. And frankly, I'm not even the worst coder when it comes to graphic design. I know enough to see that _something_ is off with the cover, but not enough to figure out what ;-).
Yes, yes, definitely, it's okay. I like the design, actually. :) But it would be nice to have the touch of a professional, if you can.
I would say that your choice of cover design as a whole denotes elegance and taste. Look at the cover design of graphic designer Manuel Estrada:
https://estradadesign.eu/project/alianza-editorial/
Your cover remind me of that kind of style.
There are some details about the typeface, layout, and the photograph that, as somebody with a certain background in graphic design, I can perceive as a little bit off.
The photograph was chosen because I could not find other computer books with that somewhat harsh color scheme, and you gotta stand out :)
The cover design is nice enough IMO, but it definitely looks like a self-help book or something rather than a technical monograph.
The image on the site has incorrect capitalization ("A History of..."), though the one on Amazon appears to be corrected.
It's the eBook cover for Kobo which I used there. Thanks, I'll go and fix it tonight.
It's more likely that they focused on the book's content rather than the cover art for 5 years
I have not said that he should spend five years focusing on the cover of the book.
I will take a look, it looks really interesting. Thanks for the effort. I'm also interested in Lisp.
I think you might like this: 'The evolution of Lisp' by Guy L. Steele and Richard P. Gabriel. https://doi.org/10.1145/234286.1057818
I think it is worth noting that Richard P. Gabriel wrote the forward to the book in question, and he quotes Guy L. Steele in that forward -- from the paper that you are suggesting the author might like.
Or you mean he'll probably already know about the paper? Yes, I guess that's probably the case...
I did not think about it too much to be honest, I just knew that article and thought that he would really like it if he had not read it. But I can imagine somebody writing a book on the history of Lisp has already read probably all articles around on the topic.
I just did not think about it for too long.
Yup, I know of that paper. The amount of (not or partly acknowledged) reading I've done for the book borders on the insane so I do welcome these suggestions, I've forgotten 80% of what I read and learning what others value helps me put together a "you really should revisit this" list :)
Yes, so it makes sense that he'll like it, if he did not know the paper already.
This one is similar but about Haskell, and is quite interesting as well: 'A history of Haskell: being lazy with class' by Paul Hudak, Simon Peyton Jones et al. https://doi.org/10.1145/1238844.1238856
I skimmed the index but… no Clojure? My impression is that it is by far the most used current Lisp. This said, I’d love to read the book - definitely interesting.
There's a whole chapter on Clojure, don't worry :) (that's probably why it didn't make the index)
Sounds very cool. I've dabbled with Lisp on and off since the mid-80's, starting with a text adventure in LISP-80 on a Kaypro 4, and though I've never written a serious project in Lisp I've learned a great deal from it. (Wrote a lot of TCL code once upon a time; I've always thought of TCL as a Lisp in which you do a lot of things backwards.)
I think "minimalistic" languages like Tcl, and Lua, took a good look at Lisp before starting off.
Great book, I will definitely buy it, thanks for your work! The history is very important, as you’ve said in your blog post, but companies and universities don’t care much about such things unfortunately. I see there is a chapter on Clojure, so just wondering if you had the chance to interview Rich Hickey for the book?
No, I didn't. I probably should have, but the sheer magnitude of the project ran off with all my good ideas :). There's already a bunch of things I want to add in a second edition, if that ever happens, there are just so many stories to tell and only so much time. .
Positive feedback: really nice that this is available in Rakuten Kobo (as a Kobo user).
I'm Canadian. Need to support what little we have here we call "tech industry" even when it's Japanese owned these days :)
Having some personal memories about John McCarthy included in the book is amazing.
This is a nice and unexpected release, thanks for writing it. Getting a RPG endorsement is great. I just finished reading his foreword and skimming the table of contents and bibliography from the preview. I'd have liked to see a sample of a middle chapter to really see how technical and deep it gets (e.g. Land of Lisp gives its chapter 8 as a sample which I think is very representative for that book). But I plan to get this book regardless -- just not right now.
The back blurb hints that expert systems might be mentioned, but how much? No one ever seems to go much into their implementation or usage.[0] It also mentions writing some JS, which I guess is part of chapter 5, I wonder if that was a publisher request. (My favorite take on that subject in recent years is https://github.com/jart/sectorlisp)
Would it be fair to say this is mainly a history told through the lens of AI and PL research?
Amusingly I think part of me is already setting myself up for some disappointment -- it seems too short with too few references! But it's good to have a Lisp history book like this looks to be and I'm sure I'll learn things from it, and the promise of more RPG writings inside is enticing. Besides, any complete telling would take multiple books. (There's so much of historical interest locked up in proprietary applications and companies with their own histories, and so many papers published, there's also so much that can be dug through in the standardization mailing list (and other lists, like emacs) archives[1], the SAIL archives[2], the Xerox PARC archives[3], the CMU archives[4], and the many undigitized things sitting in boxes at the computer history museum...[5])
[0] Norvig's PAIP gives a small taste, one of the files: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/main/lisp/mycin-r.l... And a book about a particular system, MYCIN: https://www.shortliffe.net/Buchanan-Shortliffe-1984/MYCIN%20... And a short video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=a65uwr_O7mM
[1] http://ml.cddddr.org/ and http://cl-su-ai.lisp.se/
[2] https://www.saildart.org/
[3] The url I had before is down... I made a local copy but https://archive.org/details/2014.01.ftp.parc.xerox.com might be the same content
[4] https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/...
[5] Even in the earliest Lisp reports like https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42766480_Artificial... there are interesting things mentioned like a two-move checkmate program or "Other projects on which work continues include the Advice Taker, visual pattern recognition, and an artificial hand." Multiple times I've tried to track down those sorts of things mentioned in really old papers only to hit dead-ends on so many of them. Sometimes things were embellished, or were abandoned, or were just lost to time, and sometimes there's an undigitized box at the museum that might contain printouts etc. (There might be MYCIN source code, even.)
It's Cees de Groot! Or "Carpe Grootem" as my brain has called him for years. I remember his contributions to the Squeak community from back in the day.
"arguably the most powerful programming language in the history of computing"
That can be said about quite a few languages, Forth included. The most powerful != easy to use and/or comprehend.