The Osprey has a reputation, for sure, but it's mid-pack. They called the F-104 the widow maker for a reason, for example. And the F-16 has a fairly high accident rate, too, slightly higher than the Osprey. Though I think the F-16's history is a bit more lopsided, they made some changes after early production airframes proved pretty accident prone.
It looks like a maintenance nightmare with those clutches to decouple the blades and the mechanisms to have them folded during cruising. Does it even improve substantially in anh metric over the V280 to put money into it?
All military aircraft are maintenance nightmares. They're also extraordinarily loud and devour fuel. These are not intended to entire commercial service where they need to turn a profit for the operators.
The V280 is designed to be cheap (a very relative term here).
Reading between the lines, I suspect "fast, but also expensive" was a design option that popped up and was not chosen earlier in the V280 program and now Darpa wants to pay to see where it goes.
I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35. It still does have a lot of issues, for sure, but it turns out if you divide an eye wateringly large number by another impressively large number, the result can be a lot better than I thought it would be.
It's lot more about operational costs and project deliverables than plain sticker shock, and it is turning out to be a capable platform.
> I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35
Same for me. I was surprised to hear that it actually competes favorably on price. And aside from early griping that it couldn't beat an ancient F-16 in a dogfight, it seems pretty capable in that regard too. Saw a demo at the last airshow I went to and that plane was defying physics. I love the 16, always will, but I definitely don't think it would hang with an F-35.
The sticker price is competitive but the cost per flight hour and the availability factor is pretty horrifying. Factoring in the cost of flying and the availability makes the Grippen about half the cost.
I wonder if the flight hour cost of F 35 includes the maintenance it's undergoing when it's not available.
4th generation platforms like Grippen are not survivable in a modern air defense environment without complementary 5th generation platforms to establish air superiority. You can't avoid having a fleet of something like F-35 to gain control of the airspace.
Wildly dependent on your definition of "modern", which mostly depends on your potential adversary. The Russia/Ukraine, and the new war in the Gulf have shown numerous ways in which 4th generation jets, and more importantly cheaper missiles and even more cheap drones can perform supression of enemy air defences and/or air support. Unless you're fighting the US or China, 4th gen jets are plenty. And even against US and US defended locations, cheap drones and missiles have been able to influct some pretty serious damage to critical infrastructure (like extremely expensive and rare radar systems). An adversary not crippled by extreme sanctions and corruption for decades might have been able to achieve even more, even with the total lack of airpower.
The Gripen is a fantastic jet, but you're basically describing the difference between a fourth and fifth generation platform. When Saab and Embraer roll out their own fifth-generation jets, they will also have to contend with expensive RAM coating and complex internal hardpoints.
Putting aside the export market, it's a small miracle that the F-35 turned out as well as it did. Having a mostly-common fighter airframe shared between the Navy, Marines and Air Force was a pipe dream in the 90s. America is lucky the program didn't collapse entirely.
it also has stealth. This is a complete disaster. The only purpose of this stealth ship is to steal leaders and or go inside cave lairs and blow them up.
Cool, I guess this should be able to hover in much more "austere" environments than the F-35B STOVL and the Harrier Jet. Tiltrotor with folding rotor blades sounds very mechanically complex and challenging though.
Usually with these programs, they just commission an artist with some vague description, like they tell him to draw a futuristic VTOL aircraft, these pics have zero bearing on what gets delivered.
Sometimes they even take the piss with this, like in this video for a next-gen engine, where you can see their engine doesn't even fit in their fantasy aircraft:
If you look at the V-22 safety record in the context of the level of technical development, it is pretty good (e.g. compare to helicopters and aircraft from the 60s). The first production generation of a brand new type of vehicle is always going to be complicated, and virtually all of the V-22 mishaps come from the "new" components and procedures.
The fundamental tradeoff with tiltrotor platforms is that you trade significantly increased speed for significantly increased complexity. What that means is your battlefield survivability goes up when dealing with any opponent with meaningful air defenses, but at the cost of increasing your "resting" accident rate when most peacetime accidents are consequences of maintenance and/or procedural issues.
Because Sikorski can't make them work. Sure, they can take off and fly fast in a straight line, but they haven't been able to demonstrate sufficient maneuverability due to vibration problems in the rotor head. They are also very tall, prohibitively so for existing shipboard hangar, which would otherwise seem to be their advantage over tiltrotor platforms.
> Jetoptera is developing VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing) aircraft that use a "Fluidic Propulsion System" (FPS) instead of traditional rotors or propellers, acting like "bladeless fans on steroids". These systems use compressed air and the Coanda effect to generate high-speed thrust, promising quieter, more efficient, and faster flight (up to Mach 0.8) for aerial mobility.
Running exclusively off jet power would require an extremely (impossibly?) strong compressor stage coupled a powerful APU to generate lift. It's definitely not light enough to take off without tiltrotors.
The concept is the compressed air sent through slits in a thruster, creating negative pressure that draws in surrounding air, resulting in increased thrust, there’s a concept already of this, check the above reply.
Isn't this need already met by the Bell V280 that the army already selected for it's Blackhawk replacement? What is the big innovation they are going for here?
+50% top speed over the V280. Bell offered it as an alternative to the V280 in the early stage of the contract, but it was judged too experimental (and probably too expensive). Apparently DARPA is funding further development of the concept.
I think I'd rather have them working on airplane tech rather than writing airplane tech press releases. With this approach, it's not just a tactical thing; it's relieving the burden of wordsmithing from technical people.
The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.
> The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.
Do technical writers work on press releases? This sounds more like a job for the public relations/corporate communications department.
I have always talked/written like this. now that LLMs do it in a similar enough way, my own writing gets called AI slop. I just wish my rotator cuffs knew I was a robot.
It's probably good signal at least, if not a bit of a harsh thing to say that I don't mean in a bad way, that your writing was bland or mediocre since LLMs are basically regression to the mean.
This administration doesn't really prioritize anything that has to do with intelligence, so advanced research was obviously going to fall by the wayside.
The swedish gripen can do mach2 (2300km/h) and does not need a traditional runway (500 meters of something "flat enough" will do). I assume its way cheaper than something like this.
The Osprey killed a lot of Marines over the past decades. It took a while to work out the issues. Hopefully we will remember what the Osprey taught us.
I wonder is Iran would have gone different if we had captured the Ayatollah instead of killing him. A stealth drop ship like this would have allowed that to happen. The reason why regimes are more likely to negotiate when you capture their leaders is because you might release them. (not a good day for the usurper.)
I don't think whatever is negotiated with Iran's current regime would actually be honored by them. They may commit something to get their leader back, but won't be keeping the promises.
Their self stated goal is destruction of Israel and US. They could have chosen peace and not have funded proxies across the middle east. Their choice of aggression by whatever means they have at their disposal just shows what their long term strategy would be.
They have shown the intend. They just didn't have the capacity to follow through. Once they gain the capacity, they could go extreme lengths. Just see how they attacked their neighbors who were not party to the war.
A very good response to the parent comment and summary of the current situation.
AIUI the Iranian attack on Arab countries is strategic, increasing energy costs pressures the US to stop military action. However the US and allies were prepared with set aside oil reserves, increasing supplies from other sources, and reducing Iran's ability to interfere with shipping.
Major warfare always has tragic effects, but against regimes actively pursuing destruction of other nations, return of fire is a rational response.
Different engines for different phases of flight? It has been tried many times and never really works. Such craft can be made to fly, but never well. The answer has to come from using one set to power all phases.
Id be interested in seeing a turboprop that can transition to a turbofan/jet once the prop is folded away. The f-35 was a step in this direction.
I wonder what the motivation behind this is. Tactically, why ever show your latest weapon? What is the strategic purpose of this? It's like if I message my opponent in SC2 and tell them exactly what I'm going to tech to. That's ... insane right? Why would anyone do that?
It's not a tactical choice- it's strategic deterrence, and it's not insane at all!
The US has always had a policy of messaging programs, with a lean toward classifying some percentage of the specific capabilities.
There's a reason that F-35 program was publicized by the US government as the program was under development. It makes the US air force even scarier, which discourages adversaries from thinking about conventional warfare with America.
That said- you won't see any detailed pics of the inside of an F35 cockpit, or a detailed look at the heads up display in the fancy helmet. That's top secret, because those making those details public don't offer enough additional deterrence to justify the risk to the program.
Yes, but even if the US didn't release the specifications of the F35, other countries around the world would rapidly figure out most of the capabilities anyway from photos, videos, and casual observation. (In other words, they'd know soon enough WHAT it can do but not necessarily HOW it does it.)
This isn't a new weapon, this is a test platform for various ideas, none of which are new or secret. Also, there are not many groundbreaking advancements left in military aviation. Most are just fairly incremental engineering or manufacturing improvements. (Military space technology might be a different story, though.)
The only other nation with the potential to develop a high-tech military plane that could rival US technology would be China. But if we ever got into a war with China, they wouldn't need superior technology to win. They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.
>They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.
Even with their manufacturing capacity they don't have remotely enough boats to get a nontrivial fraction of those people to the US mainland, and the majority of those people can't swim, so they wouldn't help in taking the US mainland, a requirement to "win" a serious war. Their entire armed forces is also almost completely lacking in combat experience, and in their last skirmish (against some unarmed Indian soldiers in the mountains) 30+ soldiers Chinese tragically drowned, due to the aforementioned lack of swimming ability.
I think they just show what it can be seen, like any country with advance military developments.
They won't show you everything.
Have you ever heard about those sound/sonic (or something similar) weapons the US used in Maduro's kidnap operation? Venezuelan soldiers said (pero some publications on the internet) that they never saw anything alike, leaving them completely disoriented and helpless?
Soldiers now can even see thermal figures through walls or solid materiales, and the same time, bacome invisibles.
To be clear, this is not a power-point program but a continuation of a long-standing design work with Bell.
Two articles that cover this in depth are: 1. Revised Fold-Away Rotor Aircraft Concepts Emerge From Special Operations X-Plane Program. December 2024: https://www.twz.com/air/revised-fold-away-rotor-aircraft-con...
2. Bell’s Plan To Finally Realize A Rotorcraft That Flies Like A Jet But Hovers Like A Helicopter. September 2021: https://www.twz.com/41997/bells-plan-to-finally-realize-a-ro...
The second article covers decades of prior wind tunnel testing on the folding rotor concept.
>decades of prior wind tunnel testing on the folding rotor concept
Oof, I wish I had a job like that.
Design remings me of something...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involv...
The Osprey has a reputation, for sure, but it's mid-pack. They called the F-104 the widow maker for a reason, for example. And the F-16 has a fairly high accident rate, too, slightly higher than the Osprey. Though I think the F-16's history is a bit more lopsided, they made some changes after early production airframes proved pretty accident prone.
The Osprey's accident rate is not that bad, and the US Army have ordered a new smaller tiltrotor, the v280.
They officially named it recently to the 'MV-75'.
The next generations of accidents are going to be even more looney-tunes in nature.
It looks like a maintenance nightmare with those clutches to decouple the blades and the mechanisms to have them folded during cruising. Does it even improve substantially in anh metric over the V280 to put money into it?
All military aircraft are maintenance nightmares. They're also extraordinarily loud and devour fuel. These are not intended to entire commercial service where they need to turn a profit for the operators.
The V280 is designed to be cheap (a very relative term here).
Reading between the lines, I suspect "fast, but also expensive" was a design option that popped up and was not chosen earlier in the V280 program and now Darpa wants to pay to see where it goes.
Hard to be more expensive than F-35B.
The F-35 is cheaper then some new production 4th generation fighters at this point.
I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35. It still does have a lot of issues, for sure, but it turns out if you divide an eye wateringly large number by another impressively large number, the result can be a lot better than I thought it would be.
It's lot more about operational costs and project deliverables than plain sticker shock, and it is turning out to be a capable platform.
> I've had to eat some humble pie and moderate my assessment of the F-35
Same for me. I was surprised to hear that it actually competes favorably on price. And aside from early griping that it couldn't beat an ancient F-16 in a dogfight, it seems pretty capable in that regard too. Saw a demo at the last airshow I went to and that plane was defying physics. I love the 16, always will, but I definitely don't think it would hang with an F-35.
The sticker price is competitive but the cost per flight hour and the availability factor is pretty horrifying. Factoring in the cost of flying and the availability makes the Grippen about half the cost.
I wonder if the flight hour cost of F 35 includes the maintenance it's undergoing when it's not available.
4th generation platforms like Grippen are not survivable in a modern air defense environment without complementary 5th generation platforms to establish air superiority. You can't avoid having a fleet of something like F-35 to gain control of the airspace.
> modern air defense environment
Wildly dependent on your definition of "modern", which mostly depends on your potential adversary. The Russia/Ukraine, and the new war in the Gulf have shown numerous ways in which 4th generation jets, and more importantly cheaper missiles and even more cheap drones can perform supression of enemy air defences and/or air support. Unless you're fighting the US or China, 4th gen jets are plenty. And even against US and US defended locations, cheap drones and missiles have been able to influct some pretty serious damage to critical infrastructure (like extremely expensive and rare radar systems). An adversary not crippled by extreme sanctions and corruption for decades might have been able to achieve even more, even with the total lack of airpower.
The Gripen is a fantastic jet, but you're basically describing the difference between a fourth and fifth generation platform. When Saab and Embraer roll out their own fifth-generation jets, they will also have to contend with expensive RAM coating and complex internal hardpoints.
Putting aside the export market, it's a small miracle that the F-35 turned out as well as it did. Having a mostly-common fighter airframe shared between the Navy, Marines and Air Force was a pipe dream in the 90s. America is lucky the program didn't collapse entirely.
it also has stealth. This is a complete disaster. The only purpose of this stealth ship is to steal leaders and or go inside cave lairs and blow them up.
Cool, I guess this should be able to hover in much more "austere" environments than the F-35B STOVL and the Harrier Jet. Tiltrotor with folding rotor blades sounds very mechanically complex and challenging though.
I don't understand the purpose of the Xenon taillight.
So it's an Osprey with a jet in the back?
Usually with these programs, they just commission an artist with some vague description, like they tell him to draw a futuristic VTOL aircraft, these pics have zero bearing on what gets delivered.
Sometimes they even take the piss with this, like in this video for a next-gen engine, where you can see their engine doesn't even fit in their fantasy aircraft:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCHun6rxQm0
From the image it doesn't look balanced for VTOL when the propellors are vertical. Also are the jets enabled during VTOL?
I'm betting the person who created the "artist rendering" isnt an aeronautical engineer.
Wager $10 it's a LLM prompt.
I'm confident with the stellar service and safety record of the V-22 that an even more complex tiltrotor will be a standout success for the military.
If you look at the V-22 safety record in the context of the level of technical development, it is pretty good (e.g. compare to helicopters and aircraft from the 60s). The first production generation of a brand new type of vehicle is always going to be complicated, and virtually all of the V-22 mishaps come from the "new" components and procedures.
The fundamental tradeoff with tiltrotor platforms is that you trade significantly increased speed for significantly increased complexity. What that means is your battlefield survivability goes up when dealing with any opponent with meaningful air defenses, but at the cost of increasing your "resting" accident rate when most peacetime accidents are consequences of maintenance and/or procedural issues.
16 hull losses per ~400 units built is not exactly a stellar safety record.
Or I guess you mean /stellar?
He is being sarcastic.
Why won't they adopt one of Sikorsky's compound helicopters already? They're beautiful and elegant solutions to this problem.
Because Sikorski can't make them work. Sure, they can take off and fly fast in a straight line, but they haven't been able to demonstrate sufficient maneuverability due to vibration problems in the rotor head. They are also very tall, prohibitively so for existing shipboard hangar, which would otherwise seem to be their advantage over tiltrotor platforms.
So it has jet engines that blades unfold and attach to during takeoff and landing? Why not always use the blades?
stealth
I think the blades are added there for deception, most likely it won’t have blades.
It will need blades to VTOL.
They do exist, WIP, a bladless VTOL
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/jetoptera-bladeless-hsvtol/
> Jetoptera is developing VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing) aircraft that use a "Fluidic Propulsion System" (FPS) instead of traditional rotors or propellers, acting like "bladeless fans on steroids". These systems use compressed air and the Coanda effect to generate high-speed thrust, promising quieter, more efficient, and faster flight (up to Mach 0.8) for aerial mobility.
Running exclusively off jet power would require an extremely (impossibly?) strong compressor stage coupled a powerful APU to generate lift. It's definitely not light enough to take off without tiltrotors.
The concept is the compressed air sent through slits in a thruster, creating negative pressure that draws in surrounding air, resulting in increased thrust, there’s a concept already of this, check the above reply.
From that link, "the system delivers 10% more thrust [...] than a small turbojet."
They are still very deeply limited by compressor technology, regardless of whether they use combustion or electric propulsion.
I’d go for simplicity and do a tail lander.
Isn't this need already met by the Bell V280 that the army already selected for it's Blackhawk replacement? What is the big innovation they are going for here?
+50% top speed over the V280. Bell offered it as an alternative to the V280 in the early stage of the contract, but it was judged too experimental (and probably too expensive). Apparently DARPA is funding further development of the concept.
“ With SPRINT, we're not just building an X-plane; we're building options”. Found the guy who couldn’t be bothered to write his own press release…
I'm quite fond of the caption, which describes a "a proof-of-concept technology demonstrator that aims to demonstrate technologies and concepts"
Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
I think I'd rather have them working on airplane tech rather than writing airplane tech press releases. With this approach, it's not just a tactical thing; it's relieving the burden of wordsmithing from technical people.
The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.
> The technical people were never wordsmithing, they just didn't hire a technical writer. Instead of freeing up someone to do more design work, it freed someone to interview for a new job. I hope they get it.
Do technical writers work on press releases? This sounds more like a job for the public relations/corporate communications department.
It was a GPT.
Or, at least, my take on GPT. :) I promise I am a human.
You're absolutely right.
Good to hear that the DoD's new contract with OpenAI is solving all the most important problems...
It's a quote from someone...?
... who probably wrote their prepared PR statement with an LLM.
I have always talked/written like this. now that LLMs do it in a similar enough way, my own writing gets called AI slop. I just wish my rotator cuffs knew I was a robot.
It's probably good signal at least, if not a bit of a harsh thing to say that I don't mean in a bad way, that your writing was bland or mediocre since LLMs are basically regression to the mean.
Skimping on the service again, are we?
It feels like DARPA has fallen so far. In a post-Salt Typhoon era it's really hard to imagine them as dynamic, best-in-class innovators anymore.
This administration doesn't really prioritize anything that has to do with intelligence, so advanced research was obviously going to fall by the wayside.
https://www.iarpa.gov/research-programs
No search results for "Salt Typhoon" as the query. This nation really is fucked.
Someone has played the new Deus Ex games
The swedish gripen can do mach2 (2300km/h) and does not need a traditional runway (500 meters of something "flat enough" will do). I assume its way cheaper than something like this.
I suppose the argument is that X-76 could work in environments without roads. But that also implies without fuel or any other support on the ground.
Can it hover?
I can't access darpa.mil. Was it slashdotted because of the article being posted here, or now it is unavailable outside of US?
https://web.archive.org/web/20260309171633/https://www.darpa... might work
Inaccessible from France. With family.dns.mullvad.net private DNS.
I can access it from the UK
Still up here in the US
Hmmm... that just looks like problems. It's a lot of mechanical parts that always have to work correctly.
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The Osprey killed a lot of Marines over the past decades. It took a while to work out the issues. Hopefully we will remember what the Osprey taught us.
I wonder is Iran would have gone different if we had captured the Ayatollah instead of killing him. A stealth drop ship like this would have allowed that to happen. The reason why regimes are more likely to negotiate when you capture their leaders is because you might release them. (not a good day for the usurper.)
I don't think whatever is negotiated with Iran's current regime would actually be honored by them. They may commit something to get their leader back, but won't be keeping the promises.
Their self stated goal is destruction of Israel and US. They could have chosen peace and not have funded proxies across the middle east. Their choice of aggression by whatever means they have at their disposal just shows what their long term strategy would be.
They have shown the intend. They just didn't have the capacity to follow through. Once they gain the capacity, they could go extreme lengths. Just see how they attacked their neighbors who were not party to the war.
A very good response to the parent comment and summary of the current situation.
AIUI the Iranian attack on Arab countries is strategic, increasing energy costs pressures the US to stop military action. However the US and allies were prepared with set aside oil reserves, increasing supplies from other sources, and reducing Iran's ability to interfere with shipping.
Major warfare always has tragic effects, but against regimes actively pursuing destruction of other nations, return of fire is a rational response.
> A stealth drop ship like this would have allowed that to happen.
Yeah, I saw that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode too.
Sadly, we might need some more intensive vibranium research before it becomes reality.
Different engines for different phases of flight? It has been tried many times and never really works. Such craft can be made to fly, but never well. The answer has to come from using one set to power all phases.
Id be interested in seeing a turboprop that can transition to a turbofan/jet once the prop is folded away. The f-35 was a step in this direction.
that already exists in the form of Saab Gripen :)
Where do the 14 soldiers sit in the Gripen?
On the wings, obviously, for quick deployment. Maybe I mean early deployment.
Shades of: Being strapped to the sponsons of an AH-64 is one wild, but potentially life-saving ride.
https://www.twz.com/38435/this-is-all-the-survival-gear-that...
The straps just need to be a little stronger!
I wonder what the motivation behind this is. Tactically, why ever show your latest weapon? What is the strategic purpose of this? It's like if I message my opponent in SC2 and tell them exactly what I'm going to tech to. That's ... insane right? Why would anyone do that?
It's not a tactical choice- it's strategic deterrence, and it's not insane at all!
The US has always had a policy of messaging programs, with a lean toward classifying some percentage of the specific capabilities.
There's a reason that F-35 program was publicized by the US government as the program was under development. It makes the US air force even scarier, which discourages adversaries from thinking about conventional warfare with America.
That said- you won't see any detailed pics of the inside of an F35 cockpit, or a detailed look at the heads up display in the fancy helmet. That's top secret, because those making those details public don't offer enough additional deterrence to justify the risk to the program.
Yes, but even if the US didn't release the specifications of the F35, other countries around the world would rapidly figure out most of the capabilities anyway from photos, videos, and casual observation. (In other words, they'd know soon enough WHAT it can do but not necessarily HOW it does it.)
This isn't a new weapon, this is a test platform for various ideas, none of which are new or secret. Also, there are not many groundbreaking advancements left in military aviation. Most are just fairly incremental engineering or manufacturing improvements. (Military space technology might be a different story, though.)
The only other nation with the potential to develop a high-tech military plane that could rival US technology would be China. But if we ever got into a war with China, they wouldn't need superior technology to win. They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.
>They could win via superior manufacturing capacity and the sheer number of people they can draft into service at a moment's notice.
Even with their manufacturing capacity they don't have remotely enough boats to get a nontrivial fraction of those people to the US mainland, and the majority of those people can't swim, so they wouldn't help in taking the US mainland, a requirement to "win" a serious war. Their entire armed forces is also almost completely lacking in combat experience, and in their last skirmish (against some unarmed Indian soldiers in the mountains) 30+ soldiers Chinese tragically drowned, due to the aforementioned lack of swimming ability.
They could just cease all shipping. The consequences would be legendary.
I think they just show what it can be seen, like any country with advance military developments.
They won't show you everything.
Have you ever heard about those sound/sonic (or something similar) weapons the US used in Maduro's kidnap operation? Venezuelan soldiers said (pero some publications on the internet) that they never saw anything alike, leaving them completely disoriented and helpless?
Soldiers now can even see thermal figures through walls or solid materiales, and the same time, bacome invisibles.
It's more than sci-fi.