Wine is a project that I've grown a near-infinite level of respect for.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the work for Wine is boring and thankless. Digging through and trying to get exact parity with both the documented and undocumented behavior of Windows for the past 30 years doesn't sound fun, but it's finding every little weird edge case that makes Wine a viable product.
The fact that Wine runs a lot of games better than Windows now (especially older games) shows a very strong attention to detail and a high tolerance for pain. I commend them for it.
It is a pity that the apps most business people use everyday, like Word and Excel and Outlook don't work in it (Excel 2010 is the last version that has Platinum status). It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.
Wine has a lot of tests that are run across platforms to check conformance -- https://test.winehq.org/data/. These are a large part of why it has good compatibility.
Those benchmark numbers are slightly misleading, as they are a comparison of Wine+ntsync against Wine+nothing. There has been a somewhat fast "fsync" library built around Linux's futex and the gains over Wine+fsync are modest (just a few % in most cases).
That said, Wine+ntsync is still a win, just not a 8x improvement like the Dirt 3 benchmark suggests.
(And it case it's not clear, ntsync is https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html, which is a driver for Linux that offers syncronization primitives (mutex, semaphore, events) that more closely match the semantics of the Windows primitives. It's easier to do a direct implementation in Wine to support code compiled for Windows that expects to be talking to an NT kernel.)
Not only do the CRUDs have value but they're good for your sanity. I knew a guy back in the dot-com era. Very skilled coder. Backbone of the company. He pulled off miracles. Fulfilled impossible deadlines. Then one day, out of the blue, he quit. Took a job at a non-technical corp. They put him in a cubicle where he wrote Visual Basic CRUDs on an 8-5 schedule. No weird deadlines, no sleeping under the desk. He called it his paid vacation.
The grass is always greener on the other side - many low-level programmers feel like an imposter when it comes to high-level systems such as CRUD apps.
Can confirm, my buddy who is someone I respect immensely, is an embedded programmer.
He will talk about OS events, or any low level concept and it makes me feel like I don’t know anything, but he acts like I’m a genius if I talk about JavaScript Runtimes, browser engines, anything frontend.
It’s cool he teaches me new things, I teach him some
I felt this way moving from embedded into backend for the first time and having no idea where to start. Was incredibly daunting, but both domains become trivial over time.
Trivial under plan9/9front. Under Win32/POSIX, run way.
On bit shifts, pick any Forth programmer and shaders will be almost like a toy for them. They are used to implement double numbers (and maybe floats) themselves by hand by just reusing the only integer numbers they have and writting custom commands to output these pairs of integer as double numbers. They can probably implement multithreading processing by hand in Forth and also know the IEEE standards for floats better than C programmers over 20 years.
I know literal kernel developers who can handle drivers and race conditions any day of the week who can't wrap their mind around Outlook, let alone GUI updates.
Myself. Forth it's easy, 9front C it's manageable but POSIX it's hell and managing both Unix descendants are a piece of cake.
GUI interfaces for the enterprise came from Dante's hell themselves. I hate them, they are like the Madhouse from that Asterix movie making satire of the European bureucracy of the day. The often are oddly designed and they are not documented at all, you must guess the meaning by chance of with a senior tutoring you.
The same with anything corporate from Microsoft with AD roles/group policies and the like. Or anything coming from IBM.
I work on compilers, and have bounced several times off trying to write my own full stack crud app for a personal project (tried doing it in rails, phoenix and django at various times). I'm finally getting somewhere with claude's help, but it really is its own set of skills - easy to get started with but hard to do well.
As someone who works on systems at this level, believe me, it’s a learnable skill. And at least an intellectually valuable one I think too. Even if you never really need the knowledge for the things you do, there’s a nice feeling that comes from seeing something done at a high level and understanding how that makes its way down into the system and why those design choices were made.
If I were more money motivated I’d probably be building CRUD apps too. I just like weird puzzles XD.
You can probably learn to do these things too with enough determination, but don't sell yourself short. Some CRUD apps can get deceptively complicated. Businesses have a way of coming up with just the right requirements to completely invalidate your architecture if you don't know what you're doing.
Start working through the layers! It's incredibly rewarding to go from just typical day job stuff to understanding bits and pieces of esoteric low level implementation. One level at a time, it's not that bad, although it is hard and takes effort. I know next to nothing either, but having felt the same way a few years ago, these kind of posts now at least excite me instead of just intimidate.
Before anyone gets too excited about ntsync, the performance gains are (with few exceptions) mild, usually in the lower single percentage range. These extreme gains are the result of benching against vanilla wine without fsync, anyone playing demanding games on linux would have been doing so using fsync. This is mentioned in the article but treated like a side note. I've been running benchmarks between both and while the performance increase is real, please temper your expectations. A few titles might also run slightly worse.
I would assume most of them? I'd be surprised if distros like Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. would ship non-mainline kernel features like that.
Sure, gaming-focused distros, or distros like Arch or Gentoo might (optionally or otherwise), but mainstream? Probably not.
Of course, esync doesn't require kernel patches, so I imagine that was more broadly out there. But it sounds like fsync got you performance pretty close to what ntsync can do, but esync was quite a bit behind both? With vanilla being quite a bit behind esync?
(Also, jeez, fsync, what a terrible name. fsync is a syscall that has to do with filesystem data. So confusing.)
The common gaming-focused Wine/Proton builds can also use esync (eventfd-based synchronization). IIRC, it doesn't need a patched kernel.
The point being that these massive speed gains will probably not be seen by most people as you suggest, because most Linux gamers already have access to either esync or fsync.
Maybe you are right about esync but anyway I would also gather a lot of people don’t have that either. At least personally I don’t bother with custom proton builds or whatever so if Valve didn’t enable that on their build then I don’t have it.
> if Valve didn’t enable that on their build then I don’t have it.
Proton is Valve's build. It supports both fsync and esync, the latter of which does not require a kernel patch. If you're gaming on Linux with Steam, you're probably already using it.
I am glad that a portion of the thousands of dollars I've given to Valve Corporation over the years has been gone to improve Wine for everybody. I wonder how many developers and contractors on the project are paid by Valve.
Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.
I've experienced multiple instances where (so I heard; I don't use Windows) a Windows Update completely broke a game on Windows for everyone, but Wine/Proton kept running it just fine. So we're already there in some sense.
What I wonder about is if MS wants to keep people on windows, what methods they can use to do that. For simple desktop stuff I don't think they have many options to lock in other developers (and their audiences) to windows unless they want do so themselves (putting aside web based or not PC-desktop).
Bleeding edge gaming and multiplayer anti-cheat is one area where I think having a big company owning the OS probably helps them stay ahead, as that structure probably lets them work with hardware designers to get the capabilities in use (i.e. in new versions of DirectX) and available to software developers first. There's generally a lag in adoption for new features within Vulkan and then usage downstream in wine/proton to get compatibility parity with windows, then the games themselves being able to run feature/performance parity. It'd be interesting to see what cooperation would be needed to have the linux gaming stack equal at the point new features are released, and with the least amount of manual hacks or command line tweaking required for the users. As discussed a few weeks back, tough anti-cheat for linux seems like a paradox with the current methods.
> What I wonder about is if MS wants to keep people on windows, what methods they can use to do that
Microsoft doesn't give a fuck about private customers any more. They don't have money.
What has money though is enterprise/government sales, and MS got these customers tightly locked in. Compliance audits and tooling for insurances or legal stuff (SOX, GDPR, ...) are built against a full Microsoft stack of MS Server, Active Directory, Azure, Teams, Office 365 and Windows desktops.
You might be able to get away with replacing AD and GPO with Samba servers but even that is already a pain when the auditors come knocking. Everything else? There is no single FOSS based "standard offering" (i.e. a combination of everything needed to run an on-prem enterprise site, Office replacement, remote collaboration tooling), so every audit for such setups must be custom made and involves a lot of extra work.
A second leg is industrial control machines, medical devices and the likes. That's all stuff built by third party vendors and integrators. They need to continue on Windows because switching to an alternative OS would require redoing everything from scratch on the software and certification side. These customers buy the LTSC IoT stuff.
And that is why you see Microsoft pushing enshittification so hard on private customers... extract the last few cents you can from them. But the real money comes from the large customers.
It certainly runs 16-bit Windows games better than Windows 11, which can't run them at all. Not that there are a ton of those, but it's still pretty neat that they work.
Anything Direct Draw related will be mapped into OpenGL under Unix giving you decent speeds. On Windows it will be a crawling slideshow because from Windows 8 and up it will use a really dog slow software mode with no acceleration at all, worse than plain VESA. Yes, you can reuse WineD3D DLL's on Windows and run these game in a fast way, but not by default, it's a Win32 port of some Wine libraries.
People always say this to shit on glibc meanwhile those guys bend over backwards to provide strong API compatibilities. It rubs me off the wrong way.
What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version.
Such application could be rebuilt to work with an older glibc as the API is stable. The ABI is not which is why the application would need to be rebuilt.
glibc does not provide ABI compatibility because from their perspective the software should be rebuilt for newer/older versions as needed. Maintaining a stable ABI mostly helps proprietary software where the source is not available for recompilation. Naturally the gnu guys building glibc don’t care about that use case much.
I guess you didn’t mention glibc in your comment but I already typed this out
> What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version.
Is this correct? I think you perhaps have it backward? If I compile something against the glibc on my system (Debian testing), it may fail to run on older Debian releases that have older glibc versions. But I don't see why an app built against glibc 2.12 wouldn't run on Debian testing. glibc actually does a good job of using symbol versioning, and IIRC they haven't removed any public functions, so I don't see why this wouldn't work.
More at issue would be the availability of other dependencies. If that old binary compiled against glibc 2.12 was also linked with, say, OpenSSL 0.9.7, I'd have to go out and build a copy of that myself, as Debian no longer provides it, and OpenSSL 3.x is not ABI-compatible.
> glibc does not provide ABI compatibility because from their perspective the software should be rebuilt for newer/older versions as needed.
If true (I don't think it is), that is a hard showstopper for most companies that want to develop for Linux. And I wouldn't blame them.
I am sorry, I did not mean to imply anyone else is doing something poorly. I believe glibc's (and the rest of the ecosystem of libraries that are probably more limiting) policies and principled stance are quite correct and overall "good for humanity". But as you mentioned, they are inconvenient for a gamer that just wants to run an executable from 10 years ago (for which the source was lost when the game studio was bought).
No other operating system works like this. Supporting older versions of an OS or runtime with a compiler toolchain a standard expectation of developers.
Plenty of operating systems work like this. Just not highly commercial ones because proprietary software is the norm on those.
From a bit of research it looks like FreeBSD for example only provides a stable ABI within minor versions and I imagine if you build something for FreeBSD 14 it won’t work on 13.
Stable ABI literally only benefits software where the user doesn’t have the source. Any operating system which assumes you have the source will not prioritize it.
(Edit: actually thinking harder MacOS/iOS is actually much worse on binary compatibility, as for example Intel binaries will stop working entirely due to M-cpu transition - Apple just hits developers with a stick to rebuild their apps)
Yes, and this is a great reason why FreeBSD isn't a popular gaming platform, or for proprietary software in general. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but... that's why.
> Stable ABI literally only benefits software where the user doesn’t have the source.
It also benefits people who don't want to have to do busywork every time the OS updates.
What I'd like to see would be some useful extra APIs in Wine, that would allow it to perform even better in some situations, and that such APIs would be then embraced by the game developers.
Finally some embrace, extend, and extinguish love right back at Microsoft!
I don't think this is a big concern. There will still be plenty of demand for Wine even with a decent catalog of Linux-native games. People use Wine for things other than games, and even if tomorrow every single new game had a native Linux port, people would still be playing older Windows-only games for at least another 20 years, probably more.
Also the Windows ABI is still more stable than the Linux ABI. Even if Linux (non-SteamDeck) gaming share went up to like 50% or more, it still would probably be less of a hassle to build for Windows only, the performance difference on Linux+Wine isn't enough to matter.
I actually think it'll be the opposite. Even for games that have native ports I pretty much always run the Windows version with Proton, since that just tends to be more stable. People develop against the Windows API because it's familiar and somewhat unchanging, and that's fine since Proton does such a good job running it.
It seems more likely to me that the Windows API will become the de-facto Linux gaming SDK, and the idea of porting a game to Linux will become meaningless.
Possibly but does it realistically matter? I don't care why my games run on linux I just care that they do. I encountered a few cases where the native version was inferior to the wine version (Cronos is one example). With wine improving there is very little downside to just using it.
short term yeah, probably hurts native ports since "why bother". Long term though if the market share for Linux is particularly high I could see more native development.
Either way my comment is intended as more humorous than truly insightful or prophetic.
Even if all games were FOSS, without - at least - a stable API, most games will remain a hassle to run. DOOM doesn't deal as much with this due to the high amount of volunteers, but relying on community support for all games is just outsourcing labor to some unlucky fellows. At best, it's yet another pain for Linux users. At worse, it's the death of unpopular games. Either case, a hurdle for Linux adoption.
I am playing both modern and old games on Linux. Games outside a super narrow enthusiast realm are always closed-source (even indie ones) and it's going to stay like that in the foreseeable future, that's just a fact of life and gamedev incentives and specifics.
If I had a guarantee that every windows application that is important to me runs on Wine I would switch next day. Now I use Windows to develop both - Windows and Linux applications even when primary running mode for application is business backend on Linux
This is such an amazing accomplishment! Absolutely wild to see Linux basically re-implement Windows and doing it better, while MS is dead set on making everything about their software worse.
The full 16bit support here is a big thing especially given 64bit Windows (now everywhere) dropped it. With old games, there's thousands that are 16bit, and even odd cases where the game is 32bit but the installer for it is 16bit.
It seems like it would be possible to implement this in userspace using shared memory to store the data structures and using just one eventfd per thread to park/unpark (or a futex if not waiting for anything else), which should be fully correct and have similar or faster performance, at the cost of not being secure or robust against process crashes (which isn't a big problem for more Wine usage).
It seems that neither esync or fsync do this though - why?
Claude thinks that "nobody was motivated enough to write and debug the complex shared-memory waiter-list logic when simpler (if less correct) approaches worked for 95% of games, and when correctness finally mattered enough, the kernel was the more natural place to put it". Is that true?
I don't know the technical details, but the kernel docs say "It exists because implementation in user-space, using existing tools, cannot match Windows performance while offering accurate semantics."
https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html
If you're interested in technical notes on how the WoW64 thing works, I dug into Wine and implemented a similar thing in my (far inferior) emulator and wrote about it here, including some links to some Wine resources: https://neugierig.org/software/blog/2023/08/x86-x64-aarch64....
If any Wine devs are reading this, I'd love to see a talk on this topic at the 2026 Carolina Code Conference. Call for Speakers is open until March 31st.
That's interesting. I thought the point was that it needed to be in-kernel for performance reasons; if it works in userspace why did linux not do that?
Ideally it does need to be in-kernel for performance reasons. But that's not possible on macOS, so it's better to have it in userspace than not at all.
I mean, I know Mac has had some great games (eg. I spent so much time on school Macs playing that Bolo tank game) ... but they have probably <1% of the number of games Windows has. I'd expect a simiilar percentage of devs to be interested in Mace (or whatever you call Mac Wine).
Is the difference between the NT-style and POSIX-style semaphores essentially just that NT (and now this new API in Linux) supports setting a max value? Why don't POSIX semaphores support this?
WaitForMultipleObjects is fascinating behind the scenes. A single thread can wait on up to 64 independent events, which is done by plumbing the KTHREAD data structure with literally 64 slots for dispatcher header stuff, plus all the supporting Ke/dispatcher logic in the kernel.
There’s never been a POSIX equivalent to this. It requires sophisticated kernel support and the exact same parity can’t be achieved in user space alone.
> This might sound like a small quality-of-life improvement, but it's a massive piece of engineering work. The WoW64 mode now handles OpenGL memory mappings, SCSI pass-through, and even 16-bit application support. Yes, 16-bit! If you've got ancient Windows software from the '90s that you need to run for whatever reason, Wine 11 has you covered.
Does that also apply to macOS? Even on Intel machines, Apple dropped 32-bit support many many years ago and IIRC it took ugly workarounds that weren't ever part of upstream WINE but of Crossover.
While I am not a big gamer anymore, I am curious whether this new Wine release make it possible to run Windows software such as Photoshop or Visual Studio on Linux with decent speed and decent resource usage.
i would love to know how much of these gains are due to help from AI. i have no problem with AI usage at all in coding but i would love to know if the dramatic gains are because of insights from ai usage.
No, the gains here aren't very dramatic when compared properly (against fsync), and have nothing to do with AI help. The gains come down to Linux kernel support for certain synchronization primitives like the Mutex on Windows, such that there is a more direct mapping of what a Windows binary expects to what the Linux kernel provides. See https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html for the kernel support that makes this possible.
Wine is a project that I've grown a near-infinite level of respect for.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the work for Wine is boring and thankless. Digging through and trying to get exact parity with both the documented and undocumented behavior of Windows for the past 30 years doesn't sound fun, but it's finding every little weird edge case that makes Wine a viable product.
The fact that Wine runs a lot of games better than Windows now (especially older games) shows a very strong attention to detail and a high tolerance for pain. I commend them for it.
It is a superb project, and a hard thing to do.
It is a pity that the apps most business people use everyday, like Word and Excel and Outlook don't work in it (Excel 2010 is the last version that has Platinum status). It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.
Wine has a lot of tests that are run across platforms to check conformance -- https://test.winehq.org/data/. These are a large part of why it has good compatibility.
ReactOS also deserves an honorary mention. A lot of knowledge from that project feeds into Wine.
And vice-versa. It's pretty interesting that the two projects haven't kind of merged despite all the collaboration.
I simply wouldn’t have the patience to do what Elizabeth did, for a month, much less years. Really really impressive
Yes, Wine is truly a miracle. Once full support for Office is achieved, we should expect huge uptick in Linux adoption.
I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to suddenly add "features" that break said support.
> full support for office
does microsoft still sell office?
Ny that time office will be cloud only.
> Dirt 3 went from 110.6 FPS to 860.7 FPS
> Resident Evil 2 jumped from 26 FPS to 77 FPS
> Call of Juarez went from 99.8 FPS to 224.1 FPS
> Tiny Tina's Wonderlands saw gains from 130 FPS to 360 FPS
Amazing. I don't understand the low level details on how such a massive speed gain was ripe for the picking but I welcome!
I guess thanks Valve for pouring money into Proton.
Those benchmark numbers are slightly misleading, as they are a comparison of Wine+ntsync against Wine+nothing. There has been a somewhat fast "fsync" library built around Linux's futex and the gains over Wine+fsync are modest (just a few % in most cases).
That said, Wine+ntsync is still a win, just not a 8x improvement like the Dirt 3 benchmark suggests.
(And it case it's not clear, ntsync is https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html, which is a driver for Linux that offers syncronization primitives (mutex, semaphore, events) that more closely match the semantics of the Windows primitives. It's easier to do a direct implementation in Wine to support code compiled for Windows that expects to be talking to an NT kernel.)
> There has been a somewhat fast "fsync" library built around Linux's futex
The article actually goes into that in quite a bit of detail about that.
Yeah but to the commenter I was replying to, I don't think it was clear that detail was relevant to the benchmark numbers they were quoting.
* when not using esync nor fsync
Reading these posts always make me feel like an imposter. People are dealing with such low level things, while i'm outta here building simple CRUDs.
Not only do the CRUDs have value but they're good for your sanity. I knew a guy back in the dot-com era. Very skilled coder. Backbone of the company. He pulled off miracles. Fulfilled impossible deadlines. Then one day, out of the blue, he quit. Took a job at a non-technical corp. They put him in a cubicle where he wrote Visual Basic CRUDs on an 8-5 schedule. No weird deadlines, no sleeping under the desk. He called it his paid vacation.
All good. I tell people how to add another mailbox to their Outlook, "click here, now there". Not glorious. Necessary anyways.
The grass is always greener on the other side - many low-level programmers feel like an imposter when it comes to high-level systems such as CRUD apps.
Can confirm, my buddy who is someone I respect immensely, is an embedded programmer.
He will talk about OS events, or any low level concept and it makes me feel like I don’t know anything, but he acts like I’m a genius if I talk about JavaScript Runtimes, browser engines, anything frontend.
It’s cool he teaches me new things, I teach him some
I felt this way moving from embedded into backend for the first time and having no idea where to start. Was incredibly daunting, but both domains become trivial over time.
They don't. The "simplicity" of using a "high-level" framework for someone who bit-shifts for a living is almost comical.
Sure mate. And the guy who can do binary sums in his head would think of assembly as mere childsplay.
Jog on.
I met someone who bit shifts for life, uses opengl shaders for compute, but has no sql experience and is afraid of opening a tcp socket.
Trivial under plan9/9front. Under Win32/POSIX, run way.
On bit shifts, pick any Forth programmer and shaders will be almost like a toy for them. They are used to implement double numbers (and maybe floats) themselves by hand by just reusing the only integer numbers they have and writting custom commands to output these pairs of integer as double numbers. They can probably implement multithreading processing by hand in Forth and also know the IEEE standards for floats better than C programmers over 20 years.
Really?
I know literal kernel developers who can handle drivers and race conditions any day of the week who can't wrap their mind around Outlook, let alone GUI updates.
Myself. Forth it's easy, 9front C it's manageable but POSIX it's hell and managing both Unix descendants are a piece of cake.
GUI interfaces for the enterprise came from Dante's hell themselves. I hate them, they are like the Madhouse from that Asterix movie making satire of the European bureucracy of the day. The often are oddly designed and they are not documented at all, you must guess the meaning by chance of with a senior tutoring you.
The same with anything corporate from Microsoft with AD roles/group policies and the like. Or anything coming from IBM.
I work on compilers, and have bounced several times off trying to write my own full stack crud app for a personal project (tried doing it in rails, phoenix and django at various times). I'm finally getting somewhere with claude's help, but it really is its own set of skills - easy to get started with but hard to do well.
As someone who works on systems at this level, believe me, it’s a learnable skill. And at least an intellectually valuable one I think too. Even if you never really need the knowledge for the things you do, there’s a nice feeling that comes from seeing something done at a high level and understanding how that makes its way down into the system and why those design choices were made.
If I were more money motivated I’d probably be building CRUD apps too. I just like weird puzzles XD.
You can probably learn to do these things too with enough determination, but don't sell yourself short. Some CRUD apps can get deceptively complicated. Businesses have a way of coming up with just the right requirements to completely invalidate your architecture if you don't know what you're doing.
Start working through the layers! It's incredibly rewarding to go from just typical day job stuff to understanding bits and pieces of esoteric low level implementation. One level at a time, it's not that bad, although it is hard and takes effort. I know next to nothing either, but having felt the same way a few years ago, these kind of posts now at least excite me instead of just intimidate.
Same. I feel like a plumber compared to real engineers.
Play with low level things. It'll help you in your daily job in ways you do not yet imagine. Start here: nandgame.com
Meanwhile, I can't really do either because the job market sucks and I don't have time to contribute the way I want to to project like this.
>People are dealing with such low level things, while i'm outta here building simple CRUDs.
CRUDs do pay the bills.
Before anyone gets too excited about ntsync, the performance gains are (with few exceptions) mild, usually in the lower single percentage range. These extreme gains are the result of benching against vanilla wine without fsync, anyone playing demanding games on linux would have been doing so using fsync. This is mentioned in the article but treated like a side note. I've been running benchmarks between both and while the performance increase is real, please temper your expectations. A few titles might also run slightly worse.
>These extreme gains are the result of benching against vanilla without fsync, which is what anyone gaming on linux uses
Not for anyone using a kernel without these patches. Which would be most people.
Most people? What mainstream Linux distros ship without fsync or esync support?
I would assume most of them? I'd be surprised if distros like Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. would ship non-mainline kernel features like that.
Sure, gaming-focused distros, or distros like Arch or Gentoo might (optionally or otherwise), but mainstream? Probably not.
Of course, esync doesn't require kernel patches, so I imagine that was more broadly out there. But it sounds like fsync got you performance pretty close to what ntsync can do, but esync was quite a bit behind both? With vanilla being quite a bit behind esync?
(Also, jeez, fsync, what a terrible name. fsync is a syscall that has to do with filesystem data. So confusing.)
Well I can tell you that if it didn’t make it upstream Fedora didn’t ship it.
It looks there was a copr for a custom kernel-fsync and projects like Bazzite or Nobara are adding patches.
From my understanding the fsync patches were never upstreamed.
The common gaming-focused Wine/Proton builds can also use esync (eventfd-based synchronization). IIRC, it doesn't need a patched kernel.
The point being that these massive speed gains will probably not be seen by most people as you suggest, because most Linux gamers already have access to either esync or fsync.
Maybe you are right about esync but anyway I would also gather a lot of people don’t have that either. At least personally I don’t bother with custom proton builds or whatever so if Valve didn’t enable that on their build then I don’t have it.
> if Valve didn’t enable that on their build then I don’t have it.
Proton is Valve's build. It supports both fsync and esync, the latter of which does not require a kernel patch. If you're gaming on Linux with Steam, you're probably already using it.
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/?tab=readme-ov-file#...
I am glad that a portion of the thousands of dollars I've given to Valve Corporation over the years has been gone to improve Wine for everybody. I wonder how many developers and contractors on the project are paid by Valve.
Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.
Wine's APIs are more stable than Linux's APIs, so it seems more plausible to me that Wine will become the first class target itself.
I wouldn't be surprised if Wine eventually becomes more stable than Windows.
I've experienced multiple instances where (so I heard; I don't use Windows) a Windows Update completely broke a game on Windows for everyone, but Wine/Proton kept running it just fine. So we're already there in some sense.
Windows 14 will just be a linux distro with wine acting as backwards compatibility.
It feels like it won't be long before Microsoft starts helping with that (by making Windows less stable, not improving Wine).
What I wonder about is if MS wants to keep people on windows, what methods they can use to do that. For simple desktop stuff I don't think they have many options to lock in other developers (and their audiences) to windows unless they want do so themselves (putting aside web based or not PC-desktop).
Bleeding edge gaming and multiplayer anti-cheat is one area where I think having a big company owning the OS probably helps them stay ahead, as that structure probably lets them work with hardware designers to get the capabilities in use (i.e. in new versions of DirectX) and available to software developers first. There's generally a lag in adoption for new features within Vulkan and then usage downstream in wine/proton to get compatibility parity with windows, then the games themselves being able to run feature/performance parity. It'd be interesting to see what cooperation would be needed to have the linux gaming stack equal at the point new features are released, and with the least amount of manual hacks or command line tweaking required for the users. As discussed a few weeks back, tough anti-cheat for linux seems like a paradox with the current methods.
> What I wonder about is if MS wants to keep people on windows, what methods they can use to do that
Microsoft doesn't give a fuck about private customers any more. They don't have money.
What has money though is enterprise/government sales, and MS got these customers tightly locked in. Compliance audits and tooling for insurances or legal stuff (SOX, GDPR, ...) are built against a full Microsoft stack of MS Server, Active Directory, Azure, Teams, Office 365 and Windows desktops.
You might be able to get away with replacing AD and GPO with Samba servers but even that is already a pain when the auditors come knocking. Everything else? There is no single FOSS based "standard offering" (i.e. a combination of everything needed to run an on-prem enterprise site, Office replacement, remote collaboration tooling), so every audit for such setups must be custom made and involves a lot of extra work.
A second leg is industrial control machines, medical devices and the likes. That's all stuff built by third party vendors and integrators. They need to continue on Windows because switching to an alternative OS would require redoing everything from scratch on the software and certification side. These customers buy the LTSC IoT stuff.
And that is why you see Microsoft pushing enshittification so hard on private customers... extract the last few cents you can from them. But the real money comes from the large customers.
Wine actually does run some ancient Windows games better than Windows 11 itself.
It certainly runs 16-bit Windows games better than Windows 11, which can't run them at all. Not that there are a ton of those, but it's still pretty neat that they work.
Anything Direct Draw related will be mapped into OpenGL under Unix giving you decent speeds. On Windows it will be a crawling slideshow because from Windows 8 and up it will use a really dog slow software mode with no acceleration at all, worse than plain VESA. Yes, you can reuse WineD3D DLL's on Windows and run these game in a fast way, but not by default, it's a Win32 port of some Wine libraries.
People always say this to shit on glibc meanwhile those guys bend over backwards to provide strong API compatibilities. It rubs me off the wrong way.
What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version.
Such application could be rebuilt to work with an older glibc as the API is stable. The ABI is not which is why the application would need to be rebuilt.
glibc does not provide ABI compatibility because from their perspective the software should be rebuilt for newer/older versions as needed. Maintaining a stable ABI mostly helps proprietary software where the source is not available for recompilation. Naturally the gnu guys building glibc don’t care about that use case much.
I guess you didn’t mention glibc in your comment but I already typed this out
> What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version.
Is this correct? I think you perhaps have it backward? If I compile something against the glibc on my system (Debian testing), it may fail to run on older Debian releases that have older glibc versions. But I don't see why an app built against glibc 2.12 wouldn't run on Debian testing. glibc actually does a good job of using symbol versioning, and IIRC they haven't removed any public functions, so I don't see why this wouldn't work.
More at issue would be the availability of other dependencies. If that old binary compiled against glibc 2.12 was also linked with, say, OpenSSL 0.9.7, I'd have to go out and build a copy of that myself, as Debian no longer provides it, and OpenSSL 3.x is not ABI-compatible.
> glibc does not provide ABI compatibility because from their perspective the software should be rebuilt for newer/older versions as needed.
If true (I don't think it is), that is a hard showstopper for most companies that want to develop for Linux. And I wouldn't blame them.
I am sorry, I did not mean to imply anyone else is doing something poorly. I believe glibc's (and the rest of the ecosystem of libraries that are probably more limiting) policies and principled stance are quite correct and overall "good for humanity". But as you mentioned, they are inconvenient for a gamer that just wants to run an executable from 10 years ago (for which the source was lost when the game studio was bought).
No other operating system works like this. Supporting older versions of an OS or runtime with a compiler toolchain a standard expectation of developers.
Plenty of operating systems work like this. Just not highly commercial ones because proprietary software is the norm on those.
From a bit of research it looks like FreeBSD for example only provides a stable ABI within minor versions and I imagine if you build something for FreeBSD 14 it won’t work on 13.
Stable ABI literally only benefits software where the user doesn’t have the source. Any operating system which assumes you have the source will not prioritize it.
(Edit: actually thinking harder MacOS/iOS is actually much worse on binary compatibility, as for example Intel binaries will stop working entirely due to M-cpu transition - Apple just hits developers with a stick to rebuild their apps)
Yes, and this is a great reason why FreeBSD isn't a popular gaming platform, or for proprietary software in general. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but... that's why.
> Stable ABI literally only benefits software where the user doesn’t have the source.
It also benefits people who don't want to have to do busywork every time the OS updates.
what about mac os?
[delayed]
What I'd like to see would be some useful extra APIs in Wine, that would allow it to perform even better in some situations, and that such APIs would be then embraced by the game developers.
Finally some embrace, extend, and extinguish love right back at Microsoft!
Building against the Steam runtime containers seems like the other route, which also gets you more stability.
Ever since Proton came along, it has been a quiet agreement that Win32 APIs are the best target for Linux support.
I don't think this is a big concern. There will still be plenty of demand for Wine even with a decent catalog of Linux-native games. People use Wine for things other than games, and even if tomorrow every single new game had a native Linux port, people would still be playing older Windows-only games for at least another 20 years, probably more.
Also the Windows ABI is still more stable than the Linux ABI. Even if Linux (non-SteamDeck) gaming share went up to like 50% or more, it still would probably be less of a hassle to build for Windows only, the performance difference on Linux+Wine isn't enough to matter.
I actually think it'll be the opposite. Even for games that have native ports I pretty much always run the Windows version with Proton, since that just tends to be more stable. People develop against the Windows API because it's familiar and somewhat unchanging, and that's fine since Proton does such a good job running it.
This is the very definition of "a good problem to have."
It seems more likely to me that the Windows API will become the de-facto Linux gaming SDK, and the idea of porting a game to Linux will become meaningless.
If you game/app runs on Wine, doesn't that reduce the pressure to develop a Linux port?
Possibly but does it realistically matter? I don't care why my games run on linux I just care that they do. I encountered a few cases where the native version was inferior to the wine version (Cronos is one example). With wine improving there is very little downside to just using it.
short term yeah, probably hurts native ports since "why bother". Long term though if the market share for Linux is particularly high I could see more native development.
Either way my comment is intended as more humorous than truly insightful or prophetic.
Quiet the other way around. Wine being good will reduce incentives for game studio to produce native Linux ports.
Unlikely. Games need a stable ABI and Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux.
Proprietary software needs a stable ABI. Not games.
DOOM runs on any Linux system since forever because we had access to the source. You can build it for Linux 2.6 and it’ll probably still work today.
Sadly most games are proprietary
Even if all games were FOSS, without - at least - a stable API, most games will remain a hassle to run. DOOM doesn't deal as much with this due to the high amount of volunteers, but relying on community support for all games is just outsourcing labor to some unlucky fellows. At best, it's yet another pain for Linux users. At worse, it's the death of unpopular games. Either case, a hurdle for Linux adoption.
People who keep parroting this clearly have no experience of gaming on linux.
I am playing both modern and old games on Linux. Games outside a super narrow enthusiast realm are always closed-source (even indie ones) and it's going to stay like that in the foreseeable future, that's just a fact of life and gamedev incentives and specifics.
Are you able to run any of the old Loki games on Linux these days?
With compat libraries and OSSPD it will run even under Pulseaudio.
Please elaborate.
A solution to itself
If I had a guarantee that every windows application that is important to me runs on Wine I would switch next day. Now I use Windows to develop both - Windows and Linux applications even when primary running mode for application is business backend on Linux
Gotta get there somehow.
OS/2 part deux
It's interesting when old Windows games run better in Wine than in actual Windows 10/11.
It's even more interesting when the latest Windows games run better in Wine than in actual Windows 10/11.
This is such an amazing accomplishment! Absolutely wild to see Linux basically re-implement Windows and doing it better, while MS is dead set on making everything about their software worse.
The full 16bit support here is a big thing especially given 64bit Windows (now everywhere) dropped it. With old games, there's thousands that are 16bit, and even odd cases where the game is 32bit but the installer for it is 16bit.
Anybody know if NTSYNC support is why the Chrome OS team moved away from native Steam support?
It seems like it would be possible to implement this in userspace using shared memory to store the data structures and using just one eventfd per thread to park/unpark (or a futex if not waiting for anything else), which should be fully correct and have similar or faster performance, at the cost of not being secure or robust against process crashes (which isn't a big problem for more Wine usage).
It seems that neither esync or fsync do this though - why?
Claude thinks that "nobody was motivated enough to write and debug the complex shared-memory waiter-list logic when simpler (if less correct) approaches worked for 95% of games, and when correctness finally mattered enough, the kernel was the more natural place to put it". Is that true?
I don't know the technical details, but the kernel docs say "It exists because implementation in user-space, using existing tools, cannot match Windows performance while offering accurate semantics." https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html
If you're interested in technical notes on how the WoW64 thing works, I dug into Wine and implemented a similar thing in my (far inferior) emulator and wrote about it here, including some links to some Wine resources: https://neugierig.org/software/blog/2023/08/x86-x64-aarch64....
If any Wine devs are reading this, I'd love to see a talk on this topic at the 2026 Carolina Code Conference. Call for Speakers is open until March 31st.
it seems if you want the same on macOS, this is the place to contribute:
https://github.com/Alien4042x/Wine-NTsync-Userspace-macOS-ba...
That's interesting. I thought the point was that it needed to be in-kernel for performance reasons; if it works in userspace why did linux not do that?
Ideally it does need to be in-kernel for performance reasons. But that's not possible on macOS, so it's better to have it in userspace than not at all.
But does anyone care about MacOS? ;)
I mean, I know Mac has had some great games (eg. I spent so much time on school Macs playing that Bolo tank game) ... but they have probably <1% of the number of games Windows has. I'd expect a simiilar percentage of devs to be interested in Mace (or whatever you call Mac Wine).
Not sure what you mean. The number of Mac games isn't relevant to a subthread about a project to increase performance when Windows games on Mac.
Is the difference between the NT-style and POSIX-style semaphores essentially just that NT (and now this new API in Linux) supports setting a max value? Why don't POSIX semaphores support this?
WaitForMultipleObjects is fascinating behind the scenes. A single thread can wait on up to 64 independent events, which is done by plumbing the KTHREAD data structure with literally 64 slots for dispatcher header stuff, plus all the supporting Ke/dispatcher logic in the kernel.
There’s never been a POSIX equivalent to this. It requires sophisticated kernel support and the exact same parity can’t be achieved in user space alone.
I had to close 3 ads before even half my screen was the article
And then it never was more than half…
awesome, finally wine is getting proper ntsync support... and i reckon wow64 will let me run so many old games...
> This might sound like a small quality-of-life improvement, but it's a massive piece of engineering work. The WoW64 mode now handles OpenGL memory mappings, SCSI pass-through, and even 16-bit application support. Yes, 16-bit! If you've got ancient Windows software from the '90s that you need to run for whatever reason, Wine 11 has you covered.
Does that also apply to macOS? Even on Intel machines, Apple dropped 32-bit support many many years ago and IIRC it took ugly workarounds that weren't ever part of upstream WINE but of Crossover.
I'll be very interested to see how this plays out with final 3rd-party benchmarks.
Now if we can just get some decent Nvidia drivers......
What's wrong with the Nvidia drivers for Linux?
Yuck.
Why?
Does it finally support visual studio?
While I am not a big gamer anymore, I am curious whether this new Wine release make it possible to run Windows software such as Photoshop or Visual Studio on Linux with decent speed and decent resource usage.
Linux runs VS Code just fine. If you mean the larger Visual Studio suite ... why on earth would anyone want to run that garbage pile on Linux?
At least for the last decade Visual Studio and Photoshop ran just fine on wine.
i would love to know how much of these gains are due to help from AI. i have no problem with AI usage at all in coding but i would love to know if the dramatic gains are because of insights from ai usage.
No, the gains here aren't very dramatic when compared properly (against fsync), and have nothing to do with AI help. The gains come down to Linux kernel support for certain synchronization primitives like the Mutex on Windows, such that there is a more direct mapping of what a Windows binary expects to what the Linux kernel provides. See https://docs.kernel.org/userspace-api/ntsync.html for the kernel support that makes this possible.