It's sort of a self imposed problem as well because the community produces a bunch of pull requests, but only the corporate staff members can approve and merge them into the official firmware. It begs the question why have an official firmware if it's not at least slightly maintained.
It's slightly funny that the post says firmly that they aren't doing any form of real time engagement with the community anymore, then ends by announcing an AMA date and time.
It is. As the article says, all development goals for FZ had been achieved and even overachieved - providing solid and feature-rich firmware, powerful SDK and developer tools. With that and development shift towards new products, updates to core firmare became infrequent - and we tried to address that.
Src: I'm one of the developers behind Flipper Zero.
Especially since, as that article describes, the "firmware" has a much more limited scope that it used to, now being mostly a loader for app rather that providing user functions.
Worrying about firmware development resources for a Flipper Zero seems a bit like concentrating on your bios instead of ongoing updates to Linux and the applications you use. Yeah, it's important, but it's probably exceedingly rare for the firmware here to need to change much.
> We need to normalize declaring software as finished. Not everything needs continuous updates to function. In fact, a minority of software needs this. Most software works as it is written. The code does not run out of date. I want more projects that are actually just finished, without the need to be continuously mutated and complexified ad infinitum.
To be fair, some software does rot. But when you have control of the hardware and the software, rot is pretty uncommon.
Honestly, I thought the whole point was to make a popular unified platform where the community could come together and expand on it. I really can't imagine a centralized player can predict nor create all features that users might want. But it seems like Flipper did the right thing: make the software flexible and easy to expand upon.
Why would you need any support for things that are fully open source and flashable yourself?
Most everyone who has a flipper runs something like Unleashed firmware, and most of the functionality is in the apps that people built, not in the actual firmware.
Yeah whatever. I abandoned the "official crap" when they purged legit pentesting tools and silenced loads others. Momentum and extreme were so much better, and didn't play stupid games. They included everything.
And if you mention ANY of the alternate firmwares on their discord, and you get banned. Just fuck'em.
They may have created good hardware, but their software and discord community just sucked.
Given they’ve had several skirmishes with customs and law enforcement agencies around the world, this always struck me as similar to the “don’t talk about installing retail Switch games on the Switch modding Discord” type of deal - everyone knows you can do that, but allowing mentions in official channels opens us to liability and causes nothing but headaches for both us and for customers, so if you’re going to do that, you need to talk about it somewhere else. I freely admit that’s an assumption on my part, though, and I don’t know if there’s something uglier there…?
Its one thing to have a skid come in going "I wanna hack the RFID on the gubbmints's doors how can i do that?"
Versus "we forked the firmware to include a wide range of pentesting tools"
And then get banned for even saying the alternate firmware.
And seriously, this little thing is a wonderful hacker multitool. You can seriously fuck shit up with the hardware they included. For fucks sake, thats WHY they created it.
That's how you have to be on Discord, or else your guild gets banned from Discord. I wish we weren't using this crap. On IRC, sometimes you had to deal with cranky netops, but they mostly left you alone.
Absolutely nothing you said refutes anything in the comment you’re replying to. You are just reiterating “I’m angry and this is stupid”. Go write in your journal or something. It’s impossible to engage with someone who isn’t engaging themselves.
IRC is still alive and there is bunch of communities around that are a bit more lax, probably because they're half-dead compared to what they used to be. Today probabably Libera.chat would be the best introduction if you haven't touched IRC before.
Agreed 100% - they bricked the thing with official firmwares, and the "community" is the meanest most awful group of so-called hackers I've ever interacted with. It's more than just COA, they're actively aggressive and insular, not just on discord but reddit and less-known places too (which you can't know because you'll be banned for asking where you could find out).
I can understand why that happened at least remotely. If you do all those things they refused 'officially', it might be easier for stupid government idiots to paint it as a dangerous illegal tool.
Adding the necessary hardware while refusing to support arbitrarily iLLegAl things is the best of both worlds.
This. Many legit, but questionable features blown out of proportion already caused many issues with regulators who just don't want to get into details, but just delist from sales/ban the device.
And once you start talking about "jamming" and other 1337 h4x0r stuff - which is straight up illegal and can get you into trouble - on official platforms, don't get offended when that gets removed.
Sure. I get why you don't want the skids jamming. But hell, it is still in your github commit history. Your all historical work was that of a attacking hacker toolkit. Jamming proves that.
Now, that absolutely does NOT excuse Adkins on the discord from people asking how to get the PSK for garage door openers, and emulating the buttons. And especially since it was being asked by owners of said doors.
But you banned people with legitimate and legal uses too.
Good riddance to you all. I've stayed with 3rd party and steered others towards better actors than yourselves.
Is... that possible? I thought the whole point is that those were a challenge-response specifically to avoid ever them disclosing over the air the material necessary to impersonate one.
You're thinking of NFC, not RFID, and with NFC the owner might not have changed the default keys.
It's a common mix-up (people barely differentiate between the terms anymore, though I'm surprised nobody in 2 hours mentioned it yet), basically RFID is (historically) an ID; a username. Like an ID field in a database. NFC is near-field communication: bidirectional. It does challenge-response and typically runs on hardened chips. But yeah people will call NFC chips RFID and RFID chips NFC all the time. Both are waterproof devices doing radio transmissions on wireless power and you can't tell them apart without using some equipment to try and read the chip type (even if most phones can do that nowadays), so I can understand the terminology generalisation
Keyfobs absolutely should use a secure challenge-response protocol in order to prevent cloning. Unfortunately, it's extremely common for RFID devices to simply use the tag ID which is trivially cloneable. Many of the systems that make some attempt at security still fail by using a broken protocol or a flawed implementation.
Some cards don't have any form of security. For example Konami "e-amusement" cards are just an ID number, which is also written on the back of the card. It is a username so to speak, the password is the PIN you enter when you start the game.
Some cards use some kind of challenge-response but are weak and are easily crackable.
Some cards have an anti-copy protection based on rolling codes, be careful with these. The idea is that when you use it to, say, open a door, the card sends a code to the reader and if correct, that code is burned and the reader replies with the next code, which is stored in the card for the next time, making every other copy (possibly including the original) unusable. If the card emulator doesn't store the rolling code, you are completely locked out.
Some cards have a proper challenge-response mechanism that works and can't be easily copied.
Many RFID cards are literally just an ID number, and will happily allow you to copy that number to your own RFID card (look up "blue cloner guns", although they have their own downsides). Basically just security through obscurity. Cards that do fancy crypto stuff exist, but odds are your workplace badge, apartment fob, or hotel room key is the simple kind (because those are cheaper)
Oh yeah that’s how you’re supposed to do it. But it’s entirely possible to set up a system that uses RFID key fobs that uh, doesn’t.
In the case where it was most useful to make copies they did eventually replace the system with one where the keys weren’t copy able. Which was better!
In my old apartment I was able to copy my fob from my apartment office. In my new one I had to record the interaction with the door and was then able to open the door
I don’t know a whole lot about RFID, but some of the most basic cards can be copied very easily. When scanned, the reader always reads the same bits.
I believe there are some more secure cards, like Mifare DESFire EV3 that do provide some security. You’d be shocked how insecure most RFID readers for security cards are.
Is this something you do often? I could see a few use cases and also for copying garage keys. But I don't think I would use it enough to justify the investment
> I don't think I would use it enough to justify the investment
This is not a rational purchase - most of the rule breaking done with the zero is for fun or convenience, rather than being truly illegal.
It used to be more fun before the hotels started handing out NFC unlocks with your phone.
Still, being able to send each other a key for a hotel room on Signal is a nice trick if you are traveling with a sufficiently tech savvy group of people.
What a great tool and community they have built. I find my flipper0 is like a computer Swiss Army knife. It’s so fun to carry around a tool of my own trade.
Logical NAND of a laptop featureset. Has things like IR, a subghz HDR, NFC+RFID, USB device support, iButton, and the like.
Some people get a lot of use out of it, but if you just saw that list of hardware and couldn't think of one area you'd apply it in, it's probably not going to be a useful device for you.
Anything you might want to do with a radio or IR device but don’t have specialized hardware for. It’s kind of a swiss knife/leatherman tool for short range communications standards.
I think of it as the browser dev tools of radio. Most people will have no use for it but it brings visibility and interactability in to an otherwise invisible world.
Tough spot with community that expects firmware updates while hardware sells only once
Easy fix: Allow donations, merge updates once donation pool is enough to pay for the maintainers' time.
It's sort of a self imposed problem as well because the community produces a bunch of pull requests, but only the corporate staff members can approve and merge them into the official firmware. It begs the question why have an official firmware if it's not at least slightly maintained.
Which is just another way of saying "this is why most developers prefer subscriptions over one-time sales"
It's slightly funny that the post says firmly that they aren't doing any form of real time engagement with the community anymore, then ends by announcing an AMA date and time.
> TL;DR: We've allocated resources to maintain Flipper Zero firmware and support community contributions.
Is that the tldr? It sure sounds like it's still on minimal life support.
It is. As the article says, all development goals for FZ had been achieved and even overachieved - providing solid and feature-rich firmware, powerful SDK and developer tools. With that and development shift towards new products, updates to core firmare became infrequent - and we tried to address that.
Src: I'm one of the developers behind Flipper Zero.
Why can't something be "done"?
Especially since, as that article describes, the "firmware" has a much more limited scope that it used to, now being mostly a loader for app rather that providing user functions.
Worrying about firmware development resources for a Flipper Zero seems a bit like concentrating on your bios instead of ongoing updates to Linux and the applications you use. Yeah, it's important, but it's probably exceedingly rare for the firmware here to need to change much.
why it should?
Was just reading something along those lines:
https://infosec.exchange/@millie/115719943870742405
> We need to normalize declaring software as finished. Not everything needs continuous updates to function. In fact, a minority of software needs this. Most software works as it is written. The code does not run out of date. I want more projects that are actually just finished, without the need to be continuously mutated and complexified ad infinitum.
To be fair, some software does rot. But when you have control of the hardware and the software, rot is pretty uncommon.
Honestly, I thought the whole point was to make a popular unified platform where the community could come together and expand on it. I really can't imagine a centralized player can predict nor create all features that users might want. But it seems like Flipper did the right thing: make the software flexible and easy to expand upon.
Why would you need any support for things that are fully open source and flashable yourself?
Most everyone who has a flipper runs something like Unleashed firmware, and most of the functionality is in the apps that people built, not in the actual firmware.
Yeah whatever. I abandoned the "official crap" when they purged legit pentesting tools and silenced loads others. Momentum and extreme were so much better, and didn't play stupid games. They included everything.
And if you mention ANY of the alternate firmwares on their discord, and you get banned. Just fuck'em.
They may have created good hardware, but their software and discord community just sucked.
Given they’ve had several skirmishes with customs and law enforcement agencies around the world, this always struck me as similar to the “don’t talk about installing retail Switch games on the Switch modding Discord” type of deal - everyone knows you can do that, but allowing mentions in official channels opens us to liability and causes nothing but headaches for both us and for customers, so if you’re going to do that, you need to talk about it somewhere else. I freely admit that’s an assumption on my part, though, and I don’t know if there’s something uglier there…?
Its one thing to have a skid come in going "I wanna hack the RFID on the gubbmints's doors how can i do that?"
Versus "we forked the firmware to include a wide range of pentesting tools"
And then get banned for even saying the alternate firmware.
And seriously, this little thing is a wonderful hacker multitool. You can seriously fuck shit up with the hardware they included. For fucks sake, thats WHY they created it.
That's how you have to be on Discord, or else your guild gets banned from Discord. I wish we weren't using this crap. On IRC, sometimes you had to deal with cranky netops, but they mostly left you alone.
Absolutely nothing you said refutes anything in the comment you’re replying to. You are just reiterating “I’m angry and this is stupid”. Go write in your journal or something. It’s impossible to engage with someone who isn’t engaging themselves.
Any advice on good communities or sources of (reliable) information on alternative firmwares and pen testing type tools?
IRC is still alive and there is bunch of communities around that are a bit more lax, probably because they're half-dead compared to what they used to be. Today probabably Libera.chat would be the best introduction if you haven't touched IRC before.
“Furries Forking Flipper Firmware” sounds like a promising and/or true and/or Garden-Path headline
I would be interested in the names and descriptions of these legit pentesting tools.
Agreed 100% - they bricked the thing with official firmwares, and the "community" is the meanest most awful group of so-called hackers I've ever interacted with. It's more than just COA, they're actively aggressive and insular, not just on discord but reddit and less-known places too (which you can't know because you'll be banned for asking where you could find out).
What is the current go-to unofficial firmware? Mine had extreme but I think that one’s dead?
I'm currently using https://momentum-fw.dev/
Works well, and compiling modules like the epaper hacker tool is easy.
https://github.com/i12bp8/TagTinker
Thanks for the suggestion!
I can understand why that happened at least remotely. If you do all those things they refused 'officially', it might be easier for stupid government idiots to paint it as a dangerous illegal tool.
Adding the necessary hardware while refusing to support arbitrarily iLLegAl things is the best of both worlds.
This. Many legit, but questionable features blown out of proportion already caused many issues with regulators who just don't want to get into details, but just delist from sales/ban the device.
And once you start talking about "jamming" and other 1337 h4x0r stuff - which is straight up illegal and can get you into trouble - on official platforms, don't get offended when that gets removed.
Sure. I get why you don't want the skids jamming. But hell, it is still in your github commit history. Your all historical work was that of a attacking hacker toolkit. Jamming proves that.
Now, that absolutely does NOT excuse Adkins on the discord from people asking how to get the PSK for garage door openers, and emulating the buttons. And especially since it was being asked by owners of said doors.
But you banned people with legitimate and legal uses too.
Good riddance to you all. I've stayed with 3rd party and steered others towards better actors than yourselves.
are there any chinese knock offs of the hardware? i've yet to find something that integrates all the features this well
> mention ANY of the alternate firmwares on their discord, and you get banned
Does it surprise you that a Russian product team would use these tactics?
Nyet.
Flipper Zero is one of the handiest little pieces of tech I’ve ever owned. Being able to copy RFID keys is occasionally fantastically useful.
I use it to clone remotes of "dumb" devices and emulate them with ESPHome to make them "smart" fully offline under my control.
Is... that possible? I thought the whole point is that those were a challenge-response specifically to avoid ever them disclosing over the air the material necessary to impersonate one.
You're thinking of NFC, not RFID, and with NFC the owner might not have changed the default keys.
It's a common mix-up (people barely differentiate between the terms anymore, though I'm surprised nobody in 2 hours mentioned it yet), basically RFID is (historically) an ID; a username. Like an ID field in a database. NFC is near-field communication: bidirectional. It does challenge-response and typically runs on hardened chips. But yeah people will call NFC chips RFID and RFID chips NFC all the time. Both are waterproof devices doing radio transmissions on wireless power and you can't tell them apart without using some equipment to try and read the chip type (even if most phones can do that nowadays), so I can understand the terminology generalisation
Keyfobs absolutely should use a secure challenge-response protocol in order to prevent cloning. Unfortunately, it's extremely common for RFID devices to simply use the tag ID which is trivially cloneable. Many of the systems that make some attempt at security still fail by using a broken protocol or a flawed implementation.
Some cards don't have any form of security. For example Konami "e-amusement" cards are just an ID number, which is also written on the back of the card. It is a username so to speak, the password is the PIN you enter when you start the game.
Some cards use some kind of challenge-response but are weak and are easily crackable.
Some cards have an anti-copy protection based on rolling codes, be careful with these. The idea is that when you use it to, say, open a door, the card sends a code to the reader and if correct, that code is burned and the reader replies with the next code, which is stored in the card for the next time, making every other copy (possibly including the original) unusable. If the card emulator doesn't store the rolling code, you are completely locked out.
Some cards have a proper challenge-response mechanism that works and can't be easily copied.
Many RFID cards are literally just an ID number, and will happily allow you to copy that number to your own RFID card (look up "blue cloner guns", although they have their own downsides). Basically just security through obscurity. Cards that do fancy crypto stuff exist, but odds are your workplace badge, apartment fob, or hotel room key is the simple kind (because those are cheaper)
Oh yeah that’s how you’re supposed to do it. But it’s entirely possible to set up a system that uses RFID key fobs that uh, doesn’t.
In the case where it was most useful to make copies they did eventually replace the system with one where the keys weren’t copy able. Which was better!
In my old apartment I was able to copy my fob from my apartment office. In my new one I had to record the interaction with the door and was then able to open the door
Even that process can be flawed, see: Crypto1 and all the shenanigans that followed.
Recent UL-C/AES disclosure too IIRC
I don’t know a whole lot about RFID, but some of the most basic cards can be copied very easily. When scanned, the reader always reads the same bits.
I believe there are some more secure cards, like Mifare DESFire EV3 that do provide some security. You’d be shocked how insecure most RFID readers for security cards are.
RFID keys vary from utterly dumb ID-based, to hackable challenge-response, to actual NFC smartcard (very rare).
Some of that can be trivially cloned.
Most dont :)
Depends on where you are. Newer systems are resistant to attack, but not everywhere has upgraded to newer systems.
Is this something you do often? I could see a few use cases and also for copying garage keys. But I don't think I would use it enough to justify the investment
> I don't think I would use it enough to justify the investment
This is not a rational purchase - most of the rule breaking done with the zero is for fun or convenience, rather than being truly illegal.
It used to be more fun before the hotels started handing out NFC unlocks with your phone.
Still, being able to send each other a key for a hotel room on Signal is a nice trick if you are traveling with a sufficiently tech savvy group of people.
You can't even clone you garage door opener key anyway.
Flipper Zero and its clones have always been pseudohacker nonsense. Fun little party trick I suppose.
Sometimes you can clone them. My 20+ year-old condo uses non-rolling code "MegaCode". It's hit or miss.
Nope! Only occasionally. But it’s handy on those occasions.
What a great tool and community they have built. I find my flipper0 is like a computer Swiss Army knife. It’s so fun to carry around a tool of my own trade.
I get ads for this all the time but still have no idea what I could do with it.
Logical NAND of a laptop featureset. Has things like IR, a subghz HDR, NFC+RFID, USB device support, iButton, and the like.
Some people get a lot of use out of it, but if you just saw that list of hardware and couldn't think of one area you'd apply it in, it's probably not going to be a useful device for you.
Anything you might want to do with a radio or IR device but don’t have specialized hardware for. It’s kind of a swiss knife/leatherman tool for short range communications standards.
I think of it as the browser dev tools of radio. Most people will have no use for it but it brings visibility and interactability in to an otherwise invisible world.
I use mine mostly as a universal IR remote.
i vibed a .ir to tasmota IRSend commands and it is so good.