I wonder if Anthropic and OpenAI possibly missed the window to go public. A 27B open-weight model trading blows with the SOTA from just half a year ago is not great news for trillion-dollar investments...
Trading blows in some benchmarks is a bit exaggerated. If you try the model, `xhigh` is basically feels like the `max` mode (i.e. massive thinker and extremely presistent), and the amount of world knowledge and intent understanding is nowhere close to an Opus class model even from 6mo ago.
It's still very useful, and it'll probably displace a good bit of API spend; but it's not really "trading blows with SOTA from just a half year ago". A bit overblown on the Anthropic/OpenAI has missed the window I reckon.
Also, on the open weight frontier side, Kimi K3 is pretty expensive, and Deepseek V4 Pro/Flash is getting a little less juicy with price increases.
Even Zuckerberg isn't as deluded to think that there's money in constantly releasing closed models and hypserscaling their deployment, which is why we got muse-glimmer 30b last week. I have been playing with it on a 32gb MBP w/ M2 Pro. If prosumer-grade hardware from almost three years ago can now offer a novice a way to host a possibly serviceable software development agent, then there's little incentive to pay out for LLMs like Anthropic's or OpenAI's over the long run.
If the benchmarks don't lie, this is getting very close to Opus 4.6 capability - which was the turning point for me for when AI was "good enough" that it became very hard to justify not using it.
I'm sure there's some benchmaxxing going on, and some things you get only with a a larger model.
But I'm feeling pretty confident if not by Gemma 5 than by mid 2028 we'll have local models that are almost always as good as Opus 4.6 was and in many cases far better.
Similar to the way they asked Sol to solve Erdos problems, that's what I want my model to do for programming.
I don't want to try to take my best educated guess at what the best design is BEFORE implementation - especially if you're designing a feature for a codebase you're not an expert in, you don't know like the back of your hand (i.e. one that is mostly or entirely LLM generated).
What sounds good on paper - often times becomes unideal in practice when you get to the reality of implementation.
It may not be worth re-architecting your entire system to get to a "pure" design that would be the best - all things considered.
Instead, I'd like the model to independently design many plausible and coherent good solutions, then implement each of them, then intelligently pick the few winners (after its fixed any bugs that could be causing promising solutions to look artificially bad) - unless there's an obvious one - and then give me the data I need to make an informed decision on which one to go with, all before I even look at the design or implementation.
You're not getting this from a one shot prompt from a 30B model today. You can't even really get it from Sol or Fable - IME. But you can get somewhat close.
Even Fable is bad at this, I would constantly have to fix it going down architectural dead ends or just making obvious mistakes.
Which sucks for people that want LLMs to do everything like a genie, but does mean senior engineers have a few more years before they become redundant.
This is a harness problem not a model problem, try prime agent it can do that and it will do it well even :P but you need to prompt it in according to its tools and processes.
IME using 5.6 Luna and DS V4 Flash, I notice that although they are excellent at programming, even Opus-like in the way they try to debug, the thing they are worst at is inferring user intent and making good decisions with little information. They are absolutely terrible at that, will misinterpret small wording ambiguities. I suspect that's an ability you can't add with RL training, that it requires the depth of understanding from vast pre-training.
Asking it factual information[1]. You just can't compress the entire human knowledge into a 30GB file.
[1] Without searching the internet. And even if you allow it, you'll get much worse results because search means browsing and parsing the top results, and search results are horrible, whereas internal knowledge from training encompasses the entire internet plus all books including very niche stuff.
I'd love to understand this more. Are you saying the Qwen team spends their very impressive human and compute resources on publishing these amazing models and then botches the chat template with mundane bugs?
Like maybe I just misunderstand what's the hard part but wouldn't you assume that people who can put together an impressive model can also write a proper jinja chat template for it?
Yes for the first question. Google of all companies didn't even get it right with Gemma for a while until recently. For some reason it doesn't seem like people can actually get these templates right.
The $1500 Intel B70 with 32GB of VRAM can run this model at max context with good performance, btw. If you don't want to drop $5-10k for running DeepSeek this is your best budget option for local refactor/small scale dev help
I understand the B70 is a bargain vs AMD and especially nVidia offerings, but to me it feels like I would be buying something that would feel too limited in less than a year. 48G would be much more confortable.
And I know the 96G nVidia cards are selling for over 10k$.
You can buy two b60s for $1300 right now (650 each) if you want a total of 48gb. Intel recently raised the price on all of their gpu's except the b60 series, so they are currently the best deal per gb I think.
32GB is perfect for models around 30B parameters. Since qwen has really hit the spot with their 27B dense models, I think it's a good bet. Also, 32GB is enough for other tasks such as image/video generation and loading multiple smaller specialized models
Sorry, I wrote autocompletion by force of habit. I simply meant it can complete code you have already created a structure for, which personally is very nice
I thought so, but thanks for the clarification. I am a little bit disappointed that local autocompletion models have been left by the wayside in favor of models post-trained for agentic coding. Both Codestral and Qwen-2.5-coder are more than a year old at this point, but local auto-complete seems to me to be such a great usecase.
The file "Just loads" on llama.cpp, the Unsloth https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Qwen3.8-27B-GGUF is an MTP file, I see mostly the same speed on pp and generation.
There has to be something wrong with those benchmarks, I find extremely hard to believe a 27B model can work similar or exceed opus 4.6.
Worth distinguishing knowledge/task benchmarks from IF / agentic. It doesn't seem out of the question that you can have a small model thats generally good at instruction following and long-horizon agentic, as usually in those cases any requisite knowledge is in the context.
Most of the benchmark improvements afaict are in agentic and instruction following benchmarks.
I think you've been drinking the "LLMs only improve by adding parameter counts" that SOTA labs are selling VCs to build data centers so they can keep eating through cash to their own benefits.
To the countrary, the reason Chinese models are excelling in the smaller area is because there's tons of fat in closed source models because of the crazy cash being thrown around.
There absolutely is space to improve intelligence and capabilities without lathering on more and more parameters.
I think I am going to buy a second rtx 3060, as 27B has been just outside of my range for to long, and this looks like the parameter count tipping point
whats the tok/s you get on that. I have heard a few claims of around 30-50 with mtp, but for how cheap the setup is I am surprised I don't hear more about 3060 stacks so I assume there has to be some catch.
I used GPT-5.6 Sol high to optimize it, and it claimed it was getting 50. I'm seeing ~40 on my goto smoketest: "Make me a vector add in CUDA".
Funny side note. It successfully one shot the program, but it wasn't able to run it because there literally wasn't enough VRAM left to allocate CUDA memory. Watching it try to debug that was fascinating. I'm pretty sure it would have killed the llama-server (and thus itself) if it hadn't been running in a separate container.
Why is anyone even using video cards these days? You may as well be burning cash.
This is the perfect candidate for just splattering it on your nvme and then reading it off there and into memory. All of these run perfectly fine on simple m4 silicone:
Yeah, I would appreciate if someone could make sense of the pricing differences between these models. How can a provider run DSv4F at lower cost than a 27B dense or 35B A3B model?
Does it come down to utilization and/or specific model tricks and efficiencies (attention, kv cache, etc.)?
Qwen3.6-27B has been the main LLM powering my little agentic stack. I have adopted the test and verify approach to any models allowed to run on my machine. When the "heretic" version drops, I will fire up the harness and test. Super excited to see how it stacks up against Qwen3.6!!!
I wish this can run directly on my RTX 4090, seems like 30B is the sweet spot for dense model to run locally, sadly RTX 5090 is very expensive and I need a new PC and new power supply(and UPS) to run that, adding a second RTX 4090 is another option, but not sure if my PC can do that yet.
even a 3090 will give you the VRAM headroom. i run Q8 on an 3090/A6500 combo. well, Q8 of 3.6-27B. I'm building the Q8 GGUF for 3.8 now, assuming mine will finish before someone else's.
Since Qwen 3.6 27b outperforms Gemma 4 26b in most benchmarks I'm not sure the value - also Gemma 26b is a MOE model whereas this is a dense model, so not typically direct competitors at their sizes - Gemma 4 31b comparison would be interesting though.
I don't know much about the production of these models. How hard would it be to 'fork' something like this and have it not be full of CCP indoctrination?
What a weird mechanism. If someone is judging a thread/topic/event impact by the number of points it got, then doing this unfairly degrades that thread.
It should have deduped by user and combined the 168(at the time of writing this comment) + 289 points. Just add the twitter link from the previous thread as an additional link in the description, like you normally do, move all the points over, and remove the old thread.
I'm hoping to see folks distill this with current generation Opus / Fable reasoning traces. I have had my best results locally so far from Qwopus (Qwen 3.6-27B w/ Opus 4.6 reasoning distilled). This looks GREAT and I am definitely setting this up later today.
Hmm. No MoE or active params weights means this will run _slow_
I wonder if Anthropic and OpenAI possibly missed the window to go public. A 27B open-weight model trading blows with the SOTA from just half a year ago is not great news for trillion-dollar investments...
Trading blows in some benchmarks is a bit exaggerated. If you try the model, `xhigh` is basically feels like the `max` mode (i.e. massive thinker and extremely presistent), and the amount of world knowledge and intent understanding is nowhere close to an Opus class model even from 6mo ago.
It's still very useful, and it'll probably displace a good bit of API spend; but it's not really "trading blows with SOTA from just a half year ago". A bit overblown on the Anthropic/OpenAI has missed the window I reckon.
Also, on the open weight frontier side, Kimi K3 is pretty expensive, and Deepseek V4 Pro/Flash is getting a little less juicy with price increases.
This is why they've been making bank on the secondary market. They can retire now.
I mean, that was obvious from the word "go".
Even Zuckerberg isn't as deluded to think that there's money in constantly releasing closed models and hypserscaling their deployment, which is why we got muse-glimmer 30b last week. I have been playing with it on a 32gb MBP w/ M2 Pro. If prosumer-grade hardware from almost three years ago can now offer a novice a way to host a possibly serviceable software development agent, then there's little incentive to pay out for LLMs like Anthropic's or OpenAI's over the long run.
If the benchmarks don't lie, this is getting very close to Opus 4.6 capability - which was the turning point for me for when AI was "good enough" that it became very hard to justify not using it.
I'm sure there's some benchmaxxing going on, and some things you get only with a a larger model.
But I'm feeling pretty confident if not by Gemma 5 than by mid 2028 we'll have local models that are almost always as good as Opus 4.6 was and in many cases far better.
What kind of things you only get with a larger model?
Similar to the way they asked Sol to solve Erdos problems, that's what I want my model to do for programming.
I don't want to try to take my best educated guess at what the best design is BEFORE implementation - especially if you're designing a feature for a codebase you're not an expert in, you don't know like the back of your hand (i.e. one that is mostly or entirely LLM generated).
What sounds good on paper - often times becomes unideal in practice when you get to the reality of implementation.
It may not be worth re-architecting your entire system to get to a "pure" design that would be the best - all things considered.
Instead, I'd like the model to independently design many plausible and coherent good solutions, then implement each of them, then intelligently pick the few winners (after its fixed any bugs that could be causing promising solutions to look artificially bad) - unless there's an obvious one - and then give me the data I need to make an informed decision on which one to go with, all before I even look at the design or implementation.
You're not getting this from a one shot prompt from a 30B model today. You can't even really get it from Sol or Fable - IME. But you can get somewhat close.
You're going to be waiting for a while.
Even Fable is bad at this, I would constantly have to fix it going down architectural dead ends or just making obvious mistakes.
Which sucks for people that want LLMs to do everything like a genie, but does mean senior engineers have a few more years before they become redundant.
I honestly think we've got about a year tops.
This is a harness problem not a model problem, try prime agent it can do that and it will do it well even :P but you need to prompt it in according to its tools and processes.
IME using 5.6 Luna and DS V4 Flash, I notice that although they are excellent at programming, even Opus-like in the way they try to debug, the thing they are worst at is inferring user intent and making good decisions with little information. They are absolutely terrible at that, will misinterpret small wording ambiguities. I suspect that's an ability you can't add with RL training, that it requires the depth of understanding from vast pre-training.
Asking it factual information[1]. You just can't compress the entire human knowledge into a 30GB file.
[1] Without searching the internet. And even if you allow it, you'll get much worse results because search means browsing and parsing the top results, and search results are horrible, whereas internal knowledge from training encompasses the entire internet plus all books including very niche stuff.
As usual, the Jinja templates are messed up so use this [0] to reduce or turn off thinking, fix tool calling, keep a 100% KV cache hit rate, etc.
[0] https://huggingface.co/froggeric/Qwen-Fixed-Chat-Templates
I'd love to understand this more. Are you saying the Qwen team spends their very impressive human and compute resources on publishing these amazing models and then botches the chat template with mundane bugs?
Like maybe I just misunderstand what's the hard part but wouldn't you assume that people who can put together an impressive model can also write a proper jinja chat template for it?
Yes for the first question. Google of all companies didn't even get it right with Gemma for a while until recently. For some reason it doesn't seem like people can actually get these templates right.
Yes, I was fixing issues piecemeal until I found the froggeric template, I've had to fix I think one issues with that one but it's better.
Yes yes, oh god yes. They also spread FUD in the form of terrible recommended sampler settings.
If you're using llamacpp, turn on top-n-sigma with sigma of 1, turn off top-p/top-k. You'll thank me later.
How is terrible settings a case of FUD?
The $1500 Intel B70 with 32GB of VRAM can run this model at max context with good performance, btw. If you don't want to drop $5-10k for running DeepSeek this is your best budget option for local refactor/small scale dev help
I understand the B70 is a bargain vs AMD and especially nVidia offerings, but to me it feels like I would be buying something that would feel too limited in less than a year. 48G would be much more confortable.
And I know the 96G nVidia cards are selling for over 10k$.
The future can’t arrive fast enough!
You can buy two b60s for $1300 right now (650 each) if you want a total of 48gb. Intel recently raised the price on all of their gpu's except the b60 series, so they are currently the best deal per gb I think.
32GB is perfect for models around 30B parameters. Since qwen has really hit the spot with their 27B dense models, I think it's a good bet. Also, 32GB is enough for other tasks such as image/video generation and loading multiple smaller specialized models
I have a B70, what llama options are you using and what performance are you seeing?
You don't need $10k to run DeepSeek, I run it on a $1000 system.
Go on… what is this $1000 system?
Could you elaborate please? Genuinely interested
Oh, can it work with the /v1/completions/ auto-complete endpoint?
Sorry, I wrote autocompletion by force of habit. I simply meant it can complete code you have already created a structure for, which personally is very nice
I thought so, but thanks for the clarification. I am a little bit disappointed that local autocompletion models have been left by the wayside in favor of models post-trained for agentic coding. Both Codestral and Qwen-2.5-coder are more than a year old at this point, but local auto-complete seems to me to be such a great usecase.
Does anyone have a https://tenstorrent.com/hardware/cards to try it on?
The file "Just loads" on llama.cpp, the Unsloth https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Qwen3.8-27B-GGUF is an MTP file, I see mostly the same speed on pp and generation. There has to be something wrong with those benchmarks, I find extremely hard to believe a 27B model can work similar or exceed opus 4.6.
Worth distinguishing knowledge/task benchmarks from IF / agentic. It doesn't seem out of the question that you can have a small model thats generally good at instruction following and long-horizon agentic, as usually in those cases any requisite knowledge is in the context.
Most of the benchmark improvements afaict are in agentic and instruction following benchmarks.
I think you've been drinking the "LLMs only improve by adding parameter counts" that SOTA labs are selling VCs to build data centers so they can keep eating through cash to their own benefits.
To the countrary, the reason Chinese models are excelling in the smaller area is because there's tons of fat in closed source models because of the crazy cash being thrown around.
There absolutely is space to improve intelligence and capabilities without lathering on more and more parameters.
I think I am going to buy a second rtx 3060, as 27B has been just outside of my range for to long, and this looks like the parameter count tipping point
Running it on 2x3060 now. Works pretty well but VRAM is tight. 4bit quants. 1x128k context, 8bit KV, MTP on.
whats the tok/s you get on that. I have heard a few claims of around 30-50 with mtp, but for how cheap the setup is I am surprised I don't hear more about 3060 stacks so I assume there has to be some catch.
I used GPT-5.6 Sol high to optimize it, and it claimed it was getting 50. I'm seeing ~40 on my goto smoketest: "Make me a vector add in CUDA".
Funny side note. It successfully one shot the program, but it wasn't able to run it because there literally wasn't enough VRAM left to allocate CUDA memory. Watching it try to debug that was fascinating. I'm pretty sure it would have killed the llama-server (and thus itself) if it hadn't been running in a separate container.
Why is anyone even using video cards these days? You may as well be burning cash.
This is the perfect candidate for just splattering it on your nvme and then reading it off there and into memory. All of these run perfectly fine on simple m4 silicone:
https://github.com/drumih/turbo-fieldfare
https://github.com/leonickson1/Swiftlet
https://github.com/sqliteai/warp
Those are all for MoE models. And I prefer measuring my tokens in t/s instead of s/t
Lol, "burn money on apple hardware instead!"
And yet it's also a laptop you can basically take anywhere unlike a giant video card with 1000 watt power supply requirements.
This is one of the most important model releases since most use cases don't need SOTA/Frontier
If you want Qwen3.8-27B Serving Configs for the DGX Spark vLLM NVFP4 and RTX 4090 llama.cpp GGUF I added the setups here https://x.com/ErdalToprak/status/2088299678085308761?s=20
Qwen 3.6 is ~$2/m tok, 3.8 should be drop in replacement. Gemma 31B is $0.34/m tok. The price differential on these models is massive on openrouter.
Yeah, I would appreciate if someone could make sense of the pricing differences between these models. How can a provider run DSv4F at lower cost than a 27B dense or 35B A3B model?
Does it come down to utilization and/or specific model tricks and efficiencies (attention, kv cache, etc.)?
DeepInfra prices:
Qwen 3.6 27B: $0.32 in / $3.20 out
Gemma 3 27B: $0.08 in / $0.16 out
DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731: $0.08 in / $0.18 out
Qwen 3.6 35B A3B: $0.10 in / $0.95 out
https://openrouter.ai/qwen/qwen3.6-27b
https://openrouter.ai/google/gemma-3-27b-it
https://openrouter.ai/qwen/qwen3.6-35b-a3b
https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-flash-0731
DeepSeek V4 Flash is natively FP4 MoE with very compact KV cache. Say 8 GB/s. Qwen 27B is about 60 GB/s at full FP16 precision.
If active weight bandwidth is everything, then wouldn't Qwen 35b a3b (FP8) be roughly half the cost of dsv4f (FP4)?
dsv4f appears bigger and more memory/computationally expensive to run any way I look at it.
Where do you see that? From what I can see on Open Router, Qwen 3.6 27B (the closest dense equivalent to Gemma 31) is $0.28/m. Am I missing something?
https://openrouter.ai/qwen/qwen3.6-27b
They're comparing Qwen 3.8 Max to Gemma 31B, fundamental mistake.
Why are you comparing a 2.4 trillion Max model to a 31 billion model?
Qwen3.6-27B has been the main LLM powering my little agentic stack. I have adopted the test and verify approach to any models allowed to run on my machine. When the "heretic" version drops, I will fire up the harness and test. Super excited to see how it stacks up against Qwen3.6!!!
Would I be surprised there’s bench maxing happening? Yes. But some users also use Q4 quantized and complain how dumb local models are.
Need to upgrade to a second 3090! Slowly building up my local models with Krea2, MiniMax H3 (and their new Music3), and now Qwen 3.8
Really excited to see what people do with this. 3.7 27B was probably the best compromise between size and intelligence to run on consumer hardware
I wish this can run directly on my RTX 4090, seems like 30B is the sweet spot for dense model to run locally, sadly RTX 5090 is very expensive and I need a new PC and new power supply(and UPS) to run that, adding a second RTX 4090 is another option, but not sure if my PC can do that yet.
even a 3090 will give you the VRAM headroom. i run Q8 on an 3090/A6500 combo. well, Q8 of 3.6-27B. I'm building the Q8 GGUF for 3.8 now, assuming mine will finish before someone else's.
Others in this thread said it runs on RTX 4090.
I am so happy right now, qwen3.6-27b was an absolute game changer. To see another one in the same league.. phew
Waiting for the MTP version to pop up on Unsloth. Speculative decoding makes a huge difference.
Been running quantized 3.6 at 110t/s on a cheap 5060Ti and quite happy with it. If 3.8 improves on it, it would be awesome.
Yes.
O joyous day!
Kinda was expecting to see Gemma 4 26B in benchmark comparisons :(
Since Qwen 3.6 27b outperforms Gemma 4 26b in most benchmarks I'm not sure the value - also Gemma 26b is a MOE model whereas this is a dense model, so not typically direct competitors at their sizes - Gemma 4 31b comparison would be interesting though.
I see! Thanks.
I don't know much about the production of these models. How hard would it be to 'fork' something like this and have it not be full of CCP indoctrination?
Look for `heretic` fine-tunes in the next couple of days.
Why weren't the points merged again from the "dupe" thread that had 289 points?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49299684
What a weird mechanism. If someone is judging a thread/topic/event impact by the number of points it got, then doing this unfairly degrades that thread.
It should have deduped by user and combined the 168(at the time of writing this comment) + 289 points. Just add the twitter link from the previous thread as an additional link in the description, like you normally do, move all the points over, and remove the old thread.
Can anyone confirm whether this new Qwen release is any more concise when thinking? Overthinking was the biggest (only?) downside of the Qwen models.
I'm hoping to see folks distill this with current generation Opus / Fable reasoning traces. I have had my best results locally so far from Qwopus (Qwen 3.6-27B w/ Opus 4.6 reasoning distilled). This looks GREAT and I am definitely setting this up later today.
This is the homelab model hands down