Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII, when Jews had no voice and no one fighting for them.
Israel’s finance minister, one of the most senior ministers in the government:
“No one in the world will allow us to starve two million civilians to death, even though it may be justified and moral, until our hostages are returned.”
Israel’s defense minister:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.”
The idea of holding government leaders to human rights is great. Unfortunately, the ICC doesn't do anything of the sort, and so I wonder what situation we're in. Maybe it's good that the ICC exists as a first baby step toward government responsibility. Or maybe it's really bad since the ICC is effectively something for governments and the UN to point to to "prove they're doing something", a distraction, when in reality is governments and the UN are nothing and promoting impunity.
Milosevic got convicted because his own government wanted that. The government put in by the American campaign during the Yugoslav civil war. And that's basically the only way to get convicted before the ICC: if your own government wants it to happen. But the new government was far less popular than Milosevic so having him convicted in Amsterdam was very useful.
Funny how other people involved who also committed "international crimes" got let of. For example, in the Yugoslav war, at the Srebrenica massacre the leader of the UN forces, a Dutch commander by the name of Tom Karremans, tasked with preventing what happened not only committed war crimes with his forces, but also obviously let the situation escalate. He was given a medal by the Queen of the Netherlands, about 5km from the ICC building. Obviously there were people protesting during the presentation of the medal. Of course, I'm not claiming he was 1% as bad as Milosevic, but he was guilty.
It was all very convenient for the UN and the new Serbian government, as well as the US and allies, to get Milosevic convicted and not by a Serbian court, because of course the new government was very unpopular. That's the reason he got convicted in Amsterdam. Similar stories apply to all cases.
Except, of course, the Israeli case. That's the UN GA pushing to convict the leader of Israel. The ICC changed it's own rules TWICE to convict him (that was necessary because the case satisfies neither the territorial requirements nor the procedural rules of the ICC about who is allowed to bring cases) ... and it still went nowhere. That's why the comparison is made to the Dreyfus affair. Jewish "leader" goes free, French law was "changed" DURING the court case to convict him anyway. Note: in theory the law was not changed, the prosecution just openly admitted they were going to use different rules (NOT from the law) to convict him. Which is somewhat comparable to what the ICC did. Even though Netanyahu is milking it and of course he IS responsible to some extent.
Iranian, Sudanese, Myanmarese, Colombian, ... leaders get excused, half because they're still in power, the other half because governments don't want to be "humiliated" in Amsterdam. Arguably even the Netherlands and the UN itself (Tom Karremans was UN commander) interfered in a case to avoid humiliation, as specified above.
And given that that what usually happens at the ICC, I wonder what the point is. I love the idea of the ICC. But under the territorial limitations, and procedural rules, what's the point? For Milosevic it's perhaps great that he's convicted, as opposed to not convicted, but it would have been 100x better if he was convicted in Belgrade instead of Amsterdam.
Which is double bad, because Milosevic DID have the choice to keep fighting and it would have destroyed many more lives than he already did. He didn't. He eventually made the right choice, if you can stomach putting it like that. Which means this situation won't repeat. If, for example, if Iran's ayatollah, Khamenei junior has any say in the matter, Iran will fight to the death. Because if they don't he'll personally either be killed or locked up for life. Which means the only option for regime change in Iran is now fighting through the IRGC and executing Khamenei junior directly.
But the ICC will never convict Putin, unless they get the support from the Russian government. No Iranian or Hezbollah or Syrian or Chinese or North Korean or ... commander will ever be convicted there.
So sad to see that the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin only exists in traces anymore. He was not perfect, but after Peres it mostly went downhill... Ehud Olmert comes to mind as a positive influence in Israeli politics though.
Ehud Olmert was corrupt tho, he did have a plan to leave the west bank, it will be interesting to think where would we have been if it happens. Probably back to occupying sooner or later because of rocket attacks.
Thank you for speaking up, the political leadership indeed is a shame and it's important for citizens to speak out and let the world know that these blood-hungry bastards do not represent their citizens.
“The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an intergovernmental organisation and international tribunal seated in The Hague, Netherlands. Established in 2002
[…]
The establishment of an international tribunal to judge political leaders accused of international crimes was first proposed during the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 following the First World War”
It’s still needed to protect said group from national socialism; from Arab national socialism that maintains an ethnic cleansing of Jews from most Middle East countries, and from Arab controlled areas of Palestine.
And now increasingly from Western Socialism which is reverting to endorse one and only one kind of racism.
when israel and america both went on their insane run through gaza, venezuela and iran, the second thing i thought after feeling sorry for those people, was feeling sorry for israelis and americans. its going to be a rough ride getting out of this for both nations' people.
edit: and indeed the west in general, that has largely said and done nothing while watching events unfold.
> Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII, when Jews had no voice and no one fighting for the
Founded in 2002. From the article: "The ICC was established in The Hague in 2002 as the court of last resort to prosecute individuals responsible for the world’s most heinous atrocities: war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and the crime of aggression. It takes on cases when nations are unable or unwilling to prosecute crimes on their territory."
Moshe Feiglin (Former Knesset Member): In May 2025, former Likud MP Moshe Feiglin sparked widespread international outrage during a live interview on Israeli TV Channel 14. He explicitly stated, "Every child, every baby in Gaza is an enemy"
Michal Waldiger (Knesset Member): Also in May 2025, during a heated parliamentary session, Religious Zionist Party MK Michal Waldiger responded to a speech condemning the deaths of children by stating, "Yes, they will also have to kill them, because there is no choice," later adding that they are "all enemies like the Nazis"
Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Speaker of the Knesset): In January 2024, Vaturi claimed on the Knesset Channel that "any child" born in Gaza is "already a terrorist" from the moment of birth
For every single person killed in the tragic attack on Israel in October, Israel has killed 64 children[0] (so far). To some people(including here, this argument keeps erupting all the time) this is a completely normal and acceptable trade off. People keep bringing up civilian casualties in Germany and Japan as if we can bend our morality this way. The number speaks for themselves.
I think your comment is more ambiguous than you realise. Who is the "them" at the end of your sentence?
Some would argue that Hamas continues to exist because no one has prosecutes its members.
Some would argue that Hamas exists because no one prosecutes those in the Israeli government (the "them" of the parent comment) who persecute Palestinians in a way that is bound to cultivate terrorism.
It's really sad seeing the international order, erected primarily by the US as a driving force after WW2, now being torn down by the current US administration to the detriment not only of global safety but also the US itself.
Giving up the best soft-power levers they had in an attempt to replace them with coarse, obvious and ineffective hard-power beat-sticks is not only foolish but history shows never works well or long term.
Keep in mind that the US has never joined the ICC. China, Russia, India and, in fact, a large portion of the world (including the Arab world) aren't part of it.
The ICC, irrespective of its merits, represents a somewhat narrow point of view.
How is that "rules for thee and not for me" of they didn't sign up and didn't want the ICC to have any jurisdiction for unsigned states (including for other countries)
Edit: I guess you could point out Biden justifying Putin's warrant as a hypocrisy.
When has the US respected jurisdictions? The US for years have sent drones to foreign jurisdictions and executed people outside of any combat zone with no due process whatsoever. And according to news reports, some of the people killed were guilty by being in close physical proximity to a target. This is an affront to the rule of law, to say the least.
That aside, you know exactly what my point is. Just because there's a military conflict doesn't mean it's legal to kill anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances.
The first gulf war, the one that happened 4 years after the US government sold Iraq war helicopters very cheaply, and help them improve their chemical weapons to use against Iran. Two years after it gave Iraq targets for their brand new cyclosarin weapons, as well as political support to prevent Iraq from loosing.
The US has really degenerated into a strongman state hasn’t it? This is more like what they tell us to expect from China, but what we actually get from the US.
Which goes to show that China under Xi is probably the best "super power" enemy the US could ever hope for. What happens after Xi is anyone's get but I doubt it will be so benign.
From everything we know about China, there is no succession plan, so I guess no one knows what it will be like, but the odds are it won't be as stable as it is now. I hope I'm wrong.
Which country besides the US has the audacity to think it has extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere? To me, it is obvious that this is violent behavior and will lead to defensive action by others, and more violence, not more peace.
If it was the “hard power” it claims, what is it that makes “it” so afraid? To me, it is fairly obvious that this is how a threatened being behaves, in “childish ways”, before it fully falls apart.
You may not have intended it this way, but your top paragraph could easily be repurposed as a talking point for the current administration. What does the I in ICC stand for?
It's more low key than America but they set up secret police stations to keep an eye on Chinese communities all over the world. Officially they only help investigate crimes against their citizens but they also harass and spy on known political opponents.
The ICC itself and its member states believe they have extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere, which is sort of the whole point.
The ICC claims rights in territories where the sovereign power in that territory has signed and incorporated a treaty that grants those rights. ICC jurisdiction is domestic law.
And then there’s the whole bit about the ICC prosecutor who issued the warrants (Khan) issuing them as an attempt blackmail a fellow Muslim ICC employee who he was raping into keeping silent with “think of the Palestinian arrest warrants”: https://archive.is/YrxUF
There's been a lot of stuff bringing us back to the 2002-2008 era, with the occupation of Afghanistan, etc., now that the Brits are finally investigating the SAS men who murdered people in their beds etc., so I've been reading about the old El-Masri case and the CIA black sites in Europe, and the use of state secrets privilege to block El-Masri's lawsuit in the US, the Polish unwillingness to seriously investigate.
The only two good things are I think the ECtHR's willingness to demand an investigation, and one can question whether the CoM of the CoE have done their job in ensuring implementation, but they're at least regularly checking whether there are implementation attempts.
But what struck me was the endless deference of the ICC. They've limited their Afghanistan investigation to Afghani perpetrators even though they have access to vast numbers of Europeans with information about the black sites and the investigation of these things is even more tractable than investigating things in Afghanistan, and I think it's this deference that is the ICC's problem.
The ICC actually has powers sufficient to deal with the sanctions completely, with no need for aid from European states in any regard.
It's to the point where anyone participating in anything affecting the ICC's ability to do its job can be ordered arrested and confined indefinitely. The ICC can literally order the arrest of the workforce of an entire bank if it participates in anything having to do with retaliation against the ICC. The only thing preventing milder things like ordering the arrest of the CEO and board is the ICC's insane deference. They can also apply these things to the American political leadership who have passed the sanctions.
So I really don't understand the Americans. The ICC is doing exactly what they want. They're not even subpoenaing Europeans who sit right here with knowledge about the black sites and torture, even under intense criticism from victims who are of course pushing for investigation.
The article really misunderstands what sort of powers the ICC has. The ICC doesn't need the blocking statute to end enforcement of sanctions, they can order the arrest and indefinite detainment of anyone participating in retaliation against the court.
Oh it's definitely a threat, and the damage is not potential but factual already. Consider 120+ children dead in a single airstrike on a school in Iran, or the current gasoline prices worldwide as a result of the unprovoked war they started. People killed, world economy damage, plus the damage to international alliances, institutions, and the rule of law. Just quick 3 examples of the actual damage, and that's only this year!
They're threatening multiple countries, sovereign territories and invaded/attacked two countries in a matter of 1 year.
If this is not a "threat", then what is your definition of one? If anything you could argue this is a step ABOVE threat, since US no longer threats like e.g. North Korea does, but it actively acts as a bully on a world-wide stage.
I've lived in the US for many years and while I appreciate my time there, I can definitely say that as of today, the US is the actual cancer of the world.
I think it's something to do with them issueing an arrest warrant in November 2024 for Netanyahu for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity as part of the ICC investigation in Palestine.
They are concerned that they will be the target for war crimes, such as sinking fishing ships in the Caribbean and Pacific, targeting civilian infrastructure in Iran, and the like.
The USA has a robust legal system that draws its powers from the people, who elect legislators that can rectify situations where the law is wrong or if the courts have wronged someone incorrectly. From the perspective of US citizens, as a non-signatory country, there is no higher authority than the US justice system.
Other countries can’t just say that they’ve decided on laws and a justice system to prosecute Americans (in the absence of a US agreed treaty), and if they threaten to detain Americans anyway they are engaging in hostile aggression against the USA, especially if this is done in a politicized way.
Because both T & N that have utter disrespect for law & order when it affects themselves. For example: both have to remain in political power as this immunity from law shields them from running trials that would probably end them in prison.
Trump, a.k.a. Evil President Camacho, is not the only one. Even Bill Clinton, which I, as a conservative, consider the last US real stateman, was more interested in neutering the ICC than really joining it.
Because Trump's best bro, Putin, and his good friends in the Israeli government find themselves inconvenienced by it.
The US isn't subject to it, as it didn't sign up, but he's probably also worried that Americans who are accused of war crimes and then travel to countries which are signatories may find themselves arrested and tried.
The ICC is a waste of money and resources, and pure bullshits. It has barely achieved anything except sentencing 23 people for an absurdly low number of years.
> Champions of the court say it deters would-be war criminals, bolsters the rule of law, and offers justice to victims of atrocities. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/role-icc
It's a big mistake that they never dragged those responsible for the Gulf Wars to the ICC. At least formally. I think Italy formally declared some U.S. military as war criminals?
It's better that they rip the badaid off like this. The EU cannot stand by if all of the ICC is hit. It's gonna be painful for all of us in Europe for a little while, but this is far better than letting any more single individuals have their lives ruined for doing their (legal!) jobs for European institutions. This has already happened too many times, and is truly shameful – let this conflict rage for real now, so that it's a burden we all have to bear together!
Fully agree. EU needs to get their act together and start getting independent. It's absurd that I cannot pay cashless without using American companies. Or that people lose their bank account because someone in America does something.
Edit: They also need to force banks to make a decision. Do you want to do business in the EU? Then you must not close accounts bank accounts because someone in US puts someone on a list. If that means you lose business in the US, so be it. Make a decision which market you want to operate in. If you want to leave EU, do it. Others will take your place.
> It's absurd that I cannot pay cashless without using American companies
The infrastructure for it exists with instant SEPA transfers, and Wero is slowly developing into a useful system for retail payments, but without the EU mandating that banks and retailers must support it alongside Visa it will take a while for meaningful penetration to happen.
Yeah, it's good that it is progressing. But my hopes are really on the digital Euro. I hope the EU doesn't fall for the lobbying against it by the (Wero) banks.
If both houses switch then he will be distracted fighting them for the rest of his term; if they don't we no longer need to treat the US as a functioning democracy.
And then what? Things will magically go back to the way they were? I doubt it. The US has seriously damaged its international reputation. It has burned bridges. It has started literal wars. Removing the Orange Danger would be a good start, but it will by no means by the end the problem.
Exactly. Trump isn't the problem. Trump is a symptom. I'm far more terrified that the US will sigh and go "puh, glad that's over and will never again be a problem" than I am of Trump.
The problem is that the EU is not a country, it is a bloc. Each member state is a sovereign nation.
It is up to each member state to decide how to respond to an increasingly hostile US.
Which is why foreign actors such as US and Russia always seem to undermine the EU and foment dissent in the bloc. A unified Europe would be much harder to push around.
That is a problem, for the EU, from a perspective of power and effectiveness. The problem for the US is, in part, due to the concentration of power in the presidency, for foreign affairs.
If the US chooses someone sane next time, reestablishing institutional power, and diffusing power to avoid chaos in the future, will have to be part of the plan.
> The problem is that the EU is not a country, it is a bloc. Each member state is a sovereign nation.
Yes, but
> It is up to each member state to decide how to respond to an increasingly hostile US.
is not true. A member state cannot, for example, decide that it's fine to import and sell US beef. It is perfectly possible to introduce EU laws that protect the population of Europe from the US using European banks as a weapon against law-abiding people.
> Which is why foreign actors such as US and Russia always seem to undermine the EU and foment dissent in the bloc. A unified Europe would be much harder to push around.
It's a scale. I, too, wish for a more tightly integrated Europe, but that doesn't mean there is no integration whatsoever today.
> It is perfectly possible to introduce EU laws that protect the population of Europe from the US using European banks as a weapon against law-abiding people.
Yes it is but it's going to be necessary to have an alternative first.
Right now especially in point of sale solutions there's a practical monopoly by visa and mastercard within the EU and it's going to take years to replace that with a local solution.
> "The Trump Administration has been clear: the International Criminal Court is a corrupt and fatally politicized supranational court that has maliciously abused its authority and exceeded its mandate," Secretary of State Marco Rubio said in a statement.
I've never really thought about the ICC at all other than just knowing that the few countries that possess both hard power (military) and soft power (economic) have refused to join or recognize the ICC since its inception in 2002.
Why would China and USA both not recognize it? It seems like they're the only ones that really matter.
They don’t recognize it because they don’t have to. Why would you voluntarily agree to be bound by laws and subject to a court system if you have the option to just say you didn’t want to?
I'll preface it with the only part of the US argument against the ICC that is somewhat principled and reasonable: there is some concern that it'd be used for political prosecution of US service members or decision makers outside of constitutional guarantees like a jury trial
I don't think it actually would happen if it joined but since it's the US I can also imagine someone being pushed to (or doing it for some personal fame) to bend the procedural rules to at least launch an investigation that wouldn't generally be launched if the facts were the same in another western country.
That being said, their accusations towards the ICC as it has operated so far (as opposed to why they don't join) are mostly pretextual and right now they're mostly motivated by their alliance with Israel which is being investigated over Gaza
This will further push the EU towards sovereignty, not just on a tech front but through the financial sector. Similar to their sanctions of the Iranian airlines - these are attacks on civilian and human rights infrastructure that other countries actually find value and alignment with.
Probably (hopefully) we'll look back on this as the start of the end of US soft influence.
Almost none of the US's recent actions are new or a "turning point". All what the Trump government changed was to throw the gloves off and make it blatantly, stupidly obvious, and to act haphazardly and without thorough preparation.
ICC, embrace-extinguishing EU, exploiting Middle East, South America as colonies - these are not 180 turns, just playing the same game faster and dumber. Notable exceptions may be Canada or Greenland, but even there one might suspect they just surfaced a previously well disguised agenda.
Israeli here.
Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII, when Jews had no voice and no one fighting for them.
Israel’s finance minister, one of the most senior ministers in the government:
“No one in the world will allow us to starve two million civilians to death, even though it may be justified and moral, until our hostages are returned.”
Israel’s defense minister:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.”
Someone should prosecute those bastards.
If Milosevic was backed by Pennsylvania Avenue, he would still be in power today.
The idea of holding government leaders to human rights is great. Unfortunately, the ICC doesn't do anything of the sort, and so I wonder what situation we're in. Maybe it's good that the ICC exists as a first baby step toward government responsibility. Or maybe it's really bad since the ICC is effectively something for governments and the UN to point to to "prove they're doing something", a distraction, when in reality is governments and the UN are nothing and promoting impunity.
Milosevic got convicted because his own government wanted that. The government put in by the American campaign during the Yugoslav civil war. And that's basically the only way to get convicted before the ICC: if your own government wants it to happen. But the new government was far less popular than Milosevic so having him convicted in Amsterdam was very useful.
Funny how other people involved who also committed "international crimes" got let of. For example, in the Yugoslav war, at the Srebrenica massacre the leader of the UN forces, a Dutch commander by the name of Tom Karremans, tasked with preventing what happened not only committed war crimes with his forces, but also obviously let the situation escalate. He was given a medal by the Queen of the Netherlands, about 5km from the ICC building. Obviously there were people protesting during the presentation of the medal. Of course, I'm not claiming he was 1% as bad as Milosevic, but he was guilty.
It was all very convenient for the UN and the new Serbian government, as well as the US and allies, to get Milosevic convicted and not by a Serbian court, because of course the new government was very unpopular. That's the reason he got convicted in Amsterdam. Similar stories apply to all cases.
Except, of course, the Israeli case. That's the UN GA pushing to convict the leader of Israel. The ICC changed it's own rules TWICE to convict him (that was necessary because the case satisfies neither the territorial requirements nor the procedural rules of the ICC about who is allowed to bring cases) ... and it still went nowhere. That's why the comparison is made to the Dreyfus affair. Jewish "leader" goes free, French law was "changed" DURING the court case to convict him anyway. Note: in theory the law was not changed, the prosecution just openly admitted they were going to use different rules (NOT from the law) to convict him. Which is somewhat comparable to what the ICC did. Even though Netanyahu is milking it and of course he IS responsible to some extent.
Iranian, Sudanese, Myanmarese, Colombian, ... leaders get excused, half because they're still in power, the other half because governments don't want to be "humiliated" in Amsterdam. Arguably even the Netherlands and the UN itself (Tom Karremans was UN commander) interfered in a case to avoid humiliation, as specified above.
And given that that what usually happens at the ICC, I wonder what the point is. I love the idea of the ICC. But under the territorial limitations, and procedural rules, what's the point? For Milosevic it's perhaps great that he's convicted, as opposed to not convicted, but it would have been 100x better if he was convicted in Belgrade instead of Amsterdam.
Which is double bad, because Milosevic DID have the choice to keep fighting and it would have destroyed many more lives than he already did. He didn't. He eventually made the right choice, if you can stomach putting it like that. Which means this situation won't repeat. If, for example, if Iran's ayatollah, Khamenei junior has any say in the matter, Iran will fight to the death. Because if they don't he'll personally either be killed or locked up for life. Which means the only option for regime change in Iran is now fighting through the IRGC and executing Khamenei junior directly.
But the ICC will never convict Putin, unless they get the support from the Russian government. No Iranian or Hezbollah or Syrian or Chinese or North Korean or ... commander will ever be convicted there.
Nitpick: the ICC is not in Amsterdam, it's in Den Haag.
There's an argument to be made that the man sitting in Pennsylvania Avenue is a modern-day Milosevic himself. I'm sure they'd get along swimmingly.
if he was a bit more into guns he would probably join the Sarajevo safari
So sad to see that the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin only exists in traces anymore. He was not perfect, but after Peres it mostly went downhill... Ehud Olmert comes to mind as a positive influence in Israeli politics though.
Ehud Olmert was corrupt tho, he did have a plan to leave the west bank, it will be interesting to think where would we have been if it happens. Probably back to occupying sooner or later because of rocket attacks.
ICJ was founded on the aftermath not ICC.
Thank you for speaking up, the political leadership indeed is a shame and it's important for citizens to speak out and let the world know that these blood-hungry bastards do not represent their citizens.
> Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII
I don’t think that’s correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court:
“The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an intergovernmental organisation and international tribunal seated in The Hague, Netherlands. Established in 2002
[…]
The establishment of an international tribunal to judge political leaders accused of international crimes was first proposed during the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 following the First World War”
ICC was established in 2002, hardly "in the aftermath."
The story of Israel is both poetic in a weird way and also profoundly depressing.
A state founded to protect a group of people from national socialism ends up... implementing national socialism itself 70 years later.
I guess we'll see if it also ends in the same way
You're not allowed to talk about Jewish xenophobia.
It’s still needed to protect said group from national socialism; from Arab national socialism that maintains an ethnic cleansing of Jews from most Middle East countries, and from Arab controlled areas of Palestine.
And now increasingly from Western Socialism which is reverting to endorse one and only one kind of racism.
I’m pretty sure they’re past the point of prosecution.
Why not? Survivors of the the Nazi regime were famously put on trial and executed. I'd say it's too early for that, the regime hasn't fallen yet.
Many of them moved to Argentina and died of old age. Unironically it seems to be the country selected as escape route again.
when israel and america both went on their insane run through gaza, venezuela and iran, the second thing i thought after feeling sorry for those people, was feeling sorry for israelis and americans. its going to be a rough ride getting out of this for both nations' people.
edit: and indeed the west in general, that has largely said and done nothing while watching events unfold.
> Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII, when Jews had no voice and no one fighting for the
Founded in 2002. From the article: "The ICC was established in The Hague in 2002 as the court of last resort to prosecute individuals responsible for the world’s most heinous atrocities: war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and the crime of aggression. It takes on cases when nations are unable or unwilling to prosecute crimes on their territory."
I hope Israel will. You know how to deal with Nazis.
Another Israeli here. Wholeheartedly agree.
Moshe Feiglin (Former Knesset Member): In May 2025, former Likud MP Moshe Feiglin sparked widespread international outrage during a live interview on Israeli TV Channel 14. He explicitly stated, "Every child, every baby in Gaza is an enemy"
Michal Waldiger (Knesset Member): Also in May 2025, during a heated parliamentary session, Religious Zionist Party MK Michal Waldiger responded to a speech condemning the deaths of children by stating, "Yes, they will also have to kill them, because there is no choice," later adding that they are "all enemies like the Nazis"
Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Speaker of the Knesset): In January 2024, Vaturi claimed on the Knesset Channel that "any child" born in Gaza is "already a terrorist" from the moment of birth
For every single person killed in the tragic attack on Israel in October, Israel has killed 64 children[0] (so far). To some people(including here, this argument keeps erupting all the time) this is a completely normal and acceptable trade off. People keep bringing up civilian casualties in Germany and Japan as if we can bend our morality this way. The number speaks for themselves.
[0] https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed...
We have Hamas and their like because no one prosecute them
I think your comment is more ambiguous than you realise. Who is the "them" at the end of your sentence?
Some would argue that Hamas continues to exist because no one has prosecutes its members.
Some would argue that Hamas exists because no one prosecutes those in the Israeli government (the "them" of the parent comment) who persecute Palestinians in a way that is bound to cultivate terrorism.
Who is them and who is us? People are dying and we’ve been tricked to treat this as if it were a football game.
And how lucky Israel allowed and facilitated the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars to them.
And a time machine I guess? :P
It's really sad seeing the international order, erected primarily by the US as a driving force after WW2, now being torn down by the current US administration to the detriment not only of global safety but also the US itself.
Giving up the best soft-power levers they had in an attempt to replace them with coarse, obvious and ineffective hard-power beat-sticks is not only foolish but history shows never works well or long term.
The US has always been actively hostile to the ICC [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Prot...?
Keep in mind that the US has never joined the ICC. China, Russia, India and, in fact, a large portion of the world (including the Arab world) aren't part of it.
The ICC, irrespective of its merits, represents a somewhat narrow point of view.
The US never signed up to the ICC, rules for thee and not for me as usual from our Yankee 'friends'
How is that "rules for thee and not for me" of they didn't sign up and didn't want the ICC to have any jurisdiction for unsigned states (including for other countries)
Edit: I guess you could point out Biden justifying Putin's warrant as a hypocrisy.
When has the US respected jurisdictions? The US for years have sent drones to foreign jurisdictions and executed people outside of any combat zone with no due process whatsoever. And according to news reports, some of the people killed were guilty by being in close physical proximity to a target. This is an affront to the rule of law, to say the least.
Conducting war is not subject to jurisdictions almost by definition so I'm unsure what your point is.
The last time the US has declared war is 1942.
That aside, you know exactly what my point is. Just because there's a military conflict doesn't mean it's legal to kill anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances.
The problem is that the US used its soft power for evil, not for good. WW2 was the last war where the US were the good guys.
With the US' war of aggression on Iran, it just doesnt care what it loses in its quest to support Israel.
Agreed mostly but there's some exceptions. Like the first gulf war, America did come to the aid of Kuwait as it was attacked by Iraq.
Of course this was motivated by oil interests and not human rights but I can't call them the 'bad guys' here.
The first gulf war, the one that happened 4 years after the US government sold Iraq war helicopters very cheaply, and help them improve their chemical weapons to use against Iran. Two years after it gave Iraq targets for their brand new cyclosarin weapons, as well as political support to prevent Iraq from loosing.
Is supporting one ally a war of aggression? Explain your criteria.
The US has really degenerated into a strongman state hasn’t it? This is more like what they tell us to expect from China, but what we actually get from the US.
This is what the propaganda, from school to hollywood, taught us to expect from China and USSR.
Total speedrun.
Which goes to show that China under Xi is probably the best "super power" enemy the US could ever hope for. What happens after Xi is anyone's get but I doubt it will be so benign.
Why wouldn't it be so "benign"? Unlike the USA, China seems to have pretty sane leadership in general.
Their handling of COVID was not proportional and caused a lot of harm. Not that the US president at the time did any better.
From everything we know about China, there is no succession plan, so I guess no one knows what it will be like, but the odds are it won't be as stable as it is now. I hope I'm wrong.
Which country besides the US has the audacity to think it has extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere? To me, it is obvious that this is violent behavior and will lead to defensive action by others, and more violence, not more peace.
If it was the “hard power” it claims, what is it that makes “it” so afraid? To me, it is fairly obvious that this is how a threatened being behaves, in “childish ways”, before it fully falls apart.
You may not have intended it this way, but your top paragraph could easily be repurposed as a talking point for the current administration. What does the I in ICC stand for?
If that's a talking point it's a stupid one. The Rome Statutes are only valid in territories that have agreed to be bound by them.
It isn't bound, Hamas didn't agree to be bound by ICC.
The PRC.
Where?
It's more low key than America but they set up secret police stations to keep an eye on Chinese communities all over the world. Officially they only help investigate crimes against their citizens but they also harass and spy on known political opponents.
In 2021 they ran a campaign that forced over 200k overseas Chinese to return to the mainland or risk punishment against their family: https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/110-overseas-230000-c...
Manchester https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63972640
and several others in UK
This directly involves Chinese citizens and the Chinese consulate, and diplomatic immunity exists everywhere.
The US is sanctioning a foreign court over actions that do not even involve the US itself. There is no comparison here.
The ICC itself and its member states believe they have extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere, which is sort of the whole point.
The ICC claims rights in territories where the sovereign power in that territory has signed and incorporated a treaty that grants those rights. ICC jurisdiction is domestic law.
The ICC is issuing warrants against non-members. In fact, the issuance of the warrants against the Israelis even violates the ICCs own rules and precedent: https://www.timesofisrael.com/appealing-icc-arrest-warrants-...
And then there’s the whole bit about the ICC prosecutor who issued the warrants (Khan) issuing them as an attempt blackmail a fellow Muslim ICC employee who he was raping into keeping silent with “think of the Palestinian arrest warrants”: https://archive.is/YrxUF
There's been a lot of stuff bringing us back to the 2002-2008 era, with the occupation of Afghanistan, etc., now that the Brits are finally investigating the SAS men who murdered people in their beds etc., so I've been reading about the old El-Masri case and the CIA black sites in Europe, and the use of state secrets privilege to block El-Masri's lawsuit in the US, the Polish unwillingness to seriously investigate.
The only two good things are I think the ECtHR's willingness to demand an investigation, and one can question whether the CoM of the CoE have done their job in ensuring implementation, but they're at least regularly checking whether there are implementation attempts.
But what struck me was the endless deference of the ICC. They've limited their Afghanistan investigation to Afghani perpetrators even though they have access to vast numbers of Europeans with information about the black sites and the investigation of these things is even more tractable than investigating things in Afghanistan, and I think it's this deference that is the ICC's problem.
The ICC actually has powers sufficient to deal with the sanctions completely, with no need for aid from European states in any regard.
It's to the point where anyone participating in anything affecting the ICC's ability to do its job can be ordered arrested and confined indefinitely. The ICC can literally order the arrest of the workforce of an entire bank if it participates in anything having to do with retaliation against the ICC. The only thing preventing milder things like ordering the arrest of the CEO and board is the ICC's insane deference. They can also apply these things to the American political leadership who have passed the sanctions.
So I really don't understand the Americans. The ICC is doing exactly what they want. They're not even subpoenaing Europeans who sit right here with knowledge about the black sites and torture, even under intense criticism from victims who are of course pushing for investigation.
The article really misunderstands what sort of powers the ICC has. The ICC doesn't need the blocking statute to end enforcement of sanctions, they can order the arrest and indefinite detainment of anyone participating in retaliation against the court.
the united states is a threat to the world.
is it really a `threat` (ie potential damage)?
id say it is harmful. like a cancerous tumor that now went into hypergrowth
Oh it's definitely a threat, and the damage is not potential but factual already. Consider 120+ children dead in a single airstrike on a school in Iran, or the current gasoline prices worldwide as a result of the unprovoked war they started. People killed, world economy damage, plus the damage to international alliances, institutions, and the rule of law. Just quick 3 examples of the actual damage, and that's only this year!
They're threatening multiple countries, sovereign territories and invaded/attacked two countries in a matter of 1 year.
If this is not a "threat", then what is your definition of one? If anything you could argue this is a step ABOVE threat, since US no longer threats like e.g. North Korea does, but it actively acts as a bully on a world-wide stage.
I've lived in the US for many years and while I appreciate my time there, I can definitely say that as of today, the US is the actual cancer of the world.
Is a cancerous tumour not a threat to life?
Can anyone explain to me why the trump administration hates the ICC so much?
I think it's something to do with them issueing an arrest warrant in November 2024 for Netanyahu for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity as part of the ICC investigation in Palestine.
They are concerned that they will be the target for war crimes, such as sinking fishing ships in the Caribbean and Pacific, targeting civilian infrastructure in Iran, and the like.
The USA has a robust legal system that draws its powers from the people, who elect legislators that can rectify situations where the law is wrong or if the courts have wronged someone incorrectly. From the perspective of US citizens, as a non-signatory country, there is no higher authority than the US justice system.
Other countries can’t just say that they’ve decided on laws and a justice system to prosecute Americans (in the absence of a US agreed treaty), and if they threaten to detain Americans anyway they are engaging in hostile aggression against the USA, especially if this is done in a politicized way.
The investigation into both Netanyahu, and American soldiers in Afghanistan.
Bombing school in Iran, killing people on boat of venezuela coast. ICE murder people on streets.
The latter is a domestic issue, nothing to do with the ICC probably.
You can check Philippines president Duterte ICC case.
There is something seriously wrong when in a court POTUS (self-)pardon powers do not work.
It's been every administration. Obama and Biden refused it also
Sure, but there is a difference between not wanting to take part and actively trying to sabotage it for everyone else.
Bush, Obama and Biden wanted to keep the US out of it. Trump wants to destroy it.
Because Evil Camacho is a buffon, and does in clear light what others have the decency to do in civilized ways.
Because
- they issued a non-revocable arrest warrant for Netanyahu
- Afghanistan is a member and once threatened to prosecute US military staff for human rights violations.
Its not just the Trump adminstration, the "Hague Invasion Act" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...) was signed into American law in 2002 by G.W. Bush.
Impunity is a drug.
Because both T & N that have utter disrespect for law & order when it affects themselves. For example: both have to remain in political power as this immunity from law shields them from running trials that would probably end them in prison.
Trump, a.k.a. Evil President Camacho, is not the only one. Even Bill Clinton, which I, as a conservative, consider the last US real stateman, was more interested in neutering the ICC than really joining it.
Because Trump's best bro, Putin, and his good friends in the Israeli government find themselves inconvenienced by it.
The US isn't subject to it, as it didn't sign up, but he's probably also worried that Americans who are accused of war crimes and then travel to countries which are signatories may find themselves arrested and tried.
"The US isn't subject to it"
American citizens are subject to ICC jurisdiction if they commit crimes in an ICC-member country. Like US soldiers in Afghanistan.
Which is what freaks the US government out.
Sure, and then what'll actually happen? Nothing, if those soldiers are in the US or other non-signatory country.
Only if they travel to ICC jurisdiction countries will anything actually occur.
This will result in an erosion of the effectiveness of US sanctions.
The ICC is a waste of money and resources, and pure bullshits. It has barely achieved anything except sentencing 23 people for an absurdly low number of years.
Commit 28 crimes against humanity? To jail! For 12 years! https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3070nlqnq3o
Enlist child soldiers? 14 years! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lubanga_Dyilo
> Champions of the court say it deters would-be war criminals, bolsters the rule of law, and offers justice to victims of atrocities. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/role-icc
lol. lmao.
Try to change my mind if you want.
It's a big mistake that they never dragged those responsible for the Gulf Wars to the ICC. At least formally. I think Italy formally declared some U.S. military as war criminals?
It's better that they rip the badaid off like this. The EU cannot stand by if all of the ICC is hit. It's gonna be painful for all of us in Europe for a little while, but this is far better than letting any more single individuals have their lives ruined for doing their (legal!) jobs for European institutions. This has already happened too many times, and is truly shameful – let this conflict rage for real now, so that it's a burden we all have to bear together!
Fully agree. EU needs to get their act together and start getting independent. It's absurd that I cannot pay cashless without using American companies. Or that people lose their bank account because someone in America does something.
Edit: They also need to force banks to make a decision. Do you want to do business in the EU? Then you must not close accounts bank accounts because someone in US puts someone on a list. If that means you lose business in the US, so be it. Make a decision which market you want to operate in. If you want to leave EU, do it. Others will take your place.
> It's absurd that I cannot pay cashless without using American companies
The infrastructure for it exists with instant SEPA transfers, and Wero is slowly developing into a useful system for retail payments, but without the EU mandating that banks and retailers must support it alongside Visa it will take a while for meaningful penetration to happen.
Yeah, it's good that it is progressing. But my hopes are really on the digital Euro. I hope the EU doesn't fall for the lobbying against it by the (Wero) banks.
No. Wait for the midterms and hope it can be done without catastrophic consequences.
Why would those make a difference? The US elected the same corrupt madman twice. Why would things suddenly improve after this election?
If both houses switch then he will be distracted fighting them for the rest of his term; if they don't we no longer need to treat the US as a functioning democracy.
And then what? Things will magically go back to the way they were? I doubt it. The US has seriously damaged its international reputation. It has burned bridges. It has started literal wars. Removing the Orange Danger would be a good start, but it will by no means by the end the problem.
Exactly. Trump isn't the problem. Trump is a symptom. I'm far more terrified that the US will sigh and go "puh, glad that's over and will never again be a problem" than I am of Trump.
The problem is that the EU is not a country, it is a bloc. Each member state is a sovereign nation.
It is up to each member state to decide how to respond to an increasingly hostile US.
Which is why foreign actors such as US and Russia always seem to undermine the EU and foment dissent in the bloc. A unified Europe would be much harder to push around.
That is a problem, for the EU, from a perspective of power and effectiveness. The problem for the US is, in part, due to the concentration of power in the presidency, for foreign affairs.
If the US chooses someone sane next time, reestablishing institutional power, and diffusing power to avoid chaos in the future, will have to be part of the plan.
> The problem is that the EU is not a country, it is a bloc. Each member state is a sovereign nation.
Yes, but
> It is up to each member state to decide how to respond to an increasingly hostile US.
is not true. A member state cannot, for example, decide that it's fine to import and sell US beef. It is perfectly possible to introduce EU laws that protect the population of Europe from the US using European banks as a weapon against law-abiding people.
> Which is why foreign actors such as US and Russia always seem to undermine the EU and foment dissent in the bloc. A unified Europe would be much harder to push around.
It's a scale. I, too, wish for a more tightly integrated Europe, but that doesn't mean there is no integration whatsoever today.
> It is perfectly possible to introduce EU laws that protect the population of Europe from the US using European banks as a weapon against law-abiding people.
Yes it is but it's going to be necessary to have an alternative first.
Right now especially in point of sale solutions there's a practical monopoly by visa and mastercard within the EU and it's going to take years to replace that with a local solution.
> "The Trump Administration has been clear: the International Criminal Court is a corrupt and fatally politicized supranational court that has maliciously abused its authority and exceeded its mandate," Secretary of State Marco Rubio said in a statement.
I've never really thought about the ICC at all other than just knowing that the few countries that possess both hard power (military) and soft power (economic) have refused to join or recognize the ICC since its inception in 2002.
Why would China and USA both not recognize it? It seems like they're the only ones that really matter.
They don’t recognize it because they don’t have to. Why would you voluntarily agree to be bound by laws and subject to a court system if you have the option to just say you didn’t want to?
I'll preface it with the only part of the US argument against the ICC that is somewhat principled and reasonable: there is some concern that it'd be used for political prosecution of US service members or decision makers outside of constitutional guarantees like a jury trial
I don't think it actually would happen if it joined but since it's the US I can also imagine someone being pushed to (or doing it for some personal fame) to bend the procedural rules to at least launch an investigation that wouldn't generally be launched if the facts were the same in another western country.
That being said, their accusations towards the ICC as it has operated so far (as opposed to why they don't join) are mostly pretextual and right now they're mostly motivated by their alliance with Israel which is being investigated over Gaza
If you like doing illegal things, why would you voluntarily submit to a framework for punishing illegal things?
As a reminder, 125 countries are a member of the ICC. Here is a partial list of countries not in the ICC:
- USA
- Israel (active war)
- Russia (active war)
- Iran (active war) - signed but not ratified
- Sudan(active war) - signed but not ratified
- Yemen (active war) - signed but not ratified
- Saudi Arabia (active war)
- North Korea (passive war)
- India (recent war)
- Pakistan (recent war)
- Vietnam
- Myanmar
- Ethiopia
- China
- Turkey
- Qatar
This will further push the EU towards sovereignty, not just on a tech front but through the financial sector. Similar to their sanctions of the Iranian airlines - these are attacks on civilian and human rights infrastructure that other countries actually find value and alignment with.
Probably (hopefully) we'll look back on this as the start of the end of US soft influence.
Yes, these moves can only be self-defeating in the long term.
Perfectly exemplified by Russia pushing Sweden and Finland towards NATO in a matter of 1 or 2 years.
Almost none of the US's recent actions are new or a "turning point". All what the Trump government changed was to throw the gloves off and make it blatantly, stupidly obvious, and to act haphazardly and without thorough preparation.
ICC, embrace-extinguishing EU, exploiting Middle East, South America as colonies - these are not 180 turns, just playing the same game faster and dumber. Notable exceptions may be Canada or Greenland, but even there one might suspect they just surfaced a previously well disguised agenda.