Does anyone know the current state of agent-assisted Smalltalk, Pharo or otherwise? Intuitively it seems like a match made in heaven, since the agent can directly manipulate the running program, but I also assume that there is very little training data available for Smalltalk.
I spent some time exploring Glamorous Toolkit [1] for agent-assisted custom UI development, in an emacs fashion, where you'd modify the interface you're working with on the fly. It was a pretty good experience and the built-in data exploration was top notch.
Ironically after watching glamorous toolkit videos on youtube, I was recommended a talk by Geoffrey Litt about dynamic documents [2] and at the end of his talk I learned about bb [3], which has much better agent integration compared to GT. Like @thelazydogsback said, with agents, the programming language matters less.
>"Reading stuff like this continue to make advances and new releases is like a fever dream when everything else is all AI."
Do the advances mean anything though? Alan Kay is a personal hero of mine, I love the aesthetic of Smalltalk, and the dream-that-was once upon a time of such a system was a real missed opportunity for the evolution of programming environments. But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
> But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
The opposite. With LLMs you can now pick up any one of these obscure language and write a full blown AAA game engine in them. Or a database. Or a web framework. Or... anything you set your mind to. The language no longer matters. btw LLMs are exceptionally good at Smalltalk/Haskell/Perl/FORTRAN and other old/uncommon languages.
Like many here, I've always been a language buff -- programming in assmebly, C(++), Java, various Lisps, Prolog, O'Caml/F#/Hask, etc. - and a fan of Smalltalk. (Used Tektronix ST and Smalltalk-V, but never Pharo.)
One thing that AI programming has done is made me care much less what programming language is being used. This is slightly regrettable, but for the most part very freeing, as I don't need to worry about what language is easier for me (as a human) to use for a particular problem, or make me inclined to use one of my "pet" programming languages over one that may be a better fit for more pedestrian reasons.
I am sorry to hear that, I hope you will rediscover the joys of programming one day again!
Humans haven't given up playing chess just because computers are able to do it better, there is still a point in recreational programming.
I am fondly remembering actually using Smalltalk in production for a small web project. I think I used Squeak with the Seaside framework. The image based workflow made deploying it surprisingly easy.
This is exciting news, and I would like to say "hello" to Richard Kenneth Eng, the sole user of Pharo in the world.
It's getting harder to pick between Pharo vs Eiffel for a new project :)
Does anyone know the current state of agent-assisted Smalltalk, Pharo or otherwise? Intuitively it seems like a match made in heaven, since the agent can directly manipulate the running program, but I also assume that there is very little training data available for Smalltalk.
I spent some time exploring Glamorous Toolkit [1] for agent-assisted custom UI development, in an emacs fashion, where you'd modify the interface you're working with on the fly. It was a pretty good experience and the built-in data exploration was top notch.
Ironically after watching glamorous toolkit videos on youtube, I was recommended a talk by Geoffrey Litt about dynamic documents [2] and at the end of his talk I learned about bb [3], which has much better agent integration compared to GT. Like @thelazydogsback said, with agents, the programming language matters less.
[1] https://gtoolkit.com/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MccJdr61xnc
[3] https://getbb.app/
It got me interested so i ashed ChatGpt about the options andit found this repo: https://pharo-llm.github.io/pharo-mcp
Sounds pretty cool. Never heard about Pharo before, but i will try it in spare time.
>Intuitively it seems like a match made in heaven, since the agent can directly manipulate the running program
This should be a BIG benefit for agent-driven development, but sadly it seems that few people is taking advantage of it.
It works well, I mostly use Pi with MCP.
Niva is a Smalltalk-like language with static types:
https://github.com/gavr123456789/Niva
An implementation of Boids for Niva:
https://github.com/dharmatech/boids-niva
Reading stuff like this continue to make advances and new releases is like a fever dream when everything else is all AI.
>"Reading stuff like this continue to make advances and new releases is like a fever dream when everything else is all AI."
Do the advances mean anything though? Alan Kay is a personal hero of mine, I love the aesthetic of Smalltalk, and the dream-that-was once upon a time of such a system was a real missed opportunity for the evolution of programming environments. But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
> But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
It effectively already is. It may end up in the same domain as Haiku OS, Plant 9, or Squeak, but they are all still interesting domains of research.
> But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
When was it anything else? The 80s? I've can count the number of Smalltalk jobs I've seen in my career on my hand (but I have seen them)
> But is it anything more than a neat hobby at this point?
The opposite. With LLMs you can now pick up any one of these obscure language and write a full blown AAA game engine in them. Or a database. Or a web framework. Or... anything you set your mind to. The language no longer matters. btw LLMs are exceptionally good at Smalltalk/Haskell/Perl/FORTRAN and other old/uncommon languages.
But would doing any of that be anything more than a neat hobby? I don't mean that in a disparaging way, I'm genuinely curious.
It's like a protestant Smalltalk!
(Smalltalk is a religion, I will die on this hill!)
Like many here, I've always been a language buff -- programming in assmebly, C(++), Java, various Lisps, Prolog, O'Caml/F#/Hask, etc. - and a fan of Smalltalk. (Used Tektronix ST and Smalltalk-V, but never Pharo.)
One thing that AI programming has done is made me care much less what programming language is being used. This is slightly regrettable, but for the most part very freeing, as I don't need to worry about what language is easier for me (as a human) to use for a particular problem, or make me inclined to use one of my "pet" programming languages over one that may be a better fit for more pedestrian reasons.
I am sorry to hear that, I hope you will rediscover the joys of programming one day again!
Humans haven't given up playing chess just because computers are able to do it better, there is still a point in recreational programming.
I am fondly remembering actually using Smalltalk in production for a small web project. I think I used Squeak with the Seaside framework. The image based workflow made deploying it surprisingly easy.
Why don't they make a DOM/SVG front-end for the browsers? (Not canvas!)
It could serve as the engine for new, fun, interactive websites!
If you love that idea but don't mind the switching out the language, CLOG [1] does this on Common Lisp.
[1] https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
you mean like amber smalltalk?
https://www.amber-lang.net/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Smalltalk
or more like https://squeak.js.org/ ?
[delayed]
Pharo with a GTK4+Libadwaita adapted IDE:
https://github.com/pharo-pulsar/pulsar
Almost "Pharo for Gnome".
The fact that the page says that this version was made by "more than [X] contributors" makes me think that maybe they don't have enough contributors?
All it needs now is an MCP server.
Has anyone pointed CC at Pharo? Or is the UI and IDE a limit in this case?
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