I know this isn't the answer you want, but I sell people on Signal based on the user features. I’ve had great success in getting my friends and family to adopt it.
Signal is incredible user friendly, privacy respecting, the gold standard for encryption, cross platform, etc. Yes, it’s centralized, yes it’s imperfect in many ways, but it’s easy and it’s pretty damn good.
If you want to help the people around you to become more involved in understanding and owning their tech, it has to be an easy and good experience. It has to be tangibly better, not just abstractly better with tangible downsides.
I use XMPP, but would never try to convince my friends and family to use it; it’s too complicated, the user facing apps all suck (Snikket and Cheogram are the best of the bad lot), and the incentives to use it aren't there. As you said, it’s just not attractive to a regular user, since it’s all around a worse experience than what they currently use. The one exception is that I do occasionally recommend XMPP for SIP access via jmp.chat to some of my more technical friends who have a tolerance for clunky user experiences in favor of privacy and affordability. I am holding onto an unreasonable hope that Signal or Whatsapp or others will consider XMPP+OMEO in the future to popularize the standard, but that is extremely unlikely.
Matrix also is an unfortunately terrible alternative to discord (even Element is a rather lacking user experience), so while I have pushed to move groups there before, I no longer recommend Matrix. I suggest signal or nextcloud as alternatives when possible; the remaining large groups who need the closed server forum style system are usually unlikely to move to Matrix anyway.
Signal is a non starter for me. Centralized, requires everyone that uses it identify themselves, and they can and will use it to shill their crypto tokens or any features they want and you have no say. Its no different than Whatsapp to me.
If I cannot host it myself if I want to, or use it anonymously if I want to, then its not sovereign tech and not worth a second of my energy convincing anyone to use, especially when sovereign alternatives exist.
Matrix is by far the most usable sovereign option so it is what I switched my personal network to.
In my mental model, Matrix (specifically Element) is decentralized Signal. In other words: a modern encrypted messenger that is protocol-based and so allows users to control their data if they so wish.
If this picture is accurate, then the promised land is only two steps away: (1) make available a reliable default Matrix server for normies who don't care about privacy; (2) polish up the UX of Element.
#1 and #2 are easy to conceptualize but very difficult to build and maintain. Basically, the problem is that people don't fund open source unless they can monetize it.
I have gotten all my family and even inlaws onto Signal. (It helps that it lets Android users send higher quality pictures than SMS to iOS users, while not being social media like Whatsapp, ie. great for groups that include kids.)
But I can't even decide on a matrix/xmpp client for myself, much less for family or friends.
Yep, this is the insight that so many ideological purists are missing, in the privacy space and in free software more broadly. A 90% solution that "just works" is infinitely better than a 100% solution that nobody is going to use.
I also pretty much gave up, and now I recommend Signal.
But XMPP doesn't have to be complicated. It just needs a popular server with a good client. Yes, there are good servers and there are good clients, but none of them provide a streamlined experience. It should be like Google Talk used to be: most people knew nothing about XMPP. But as a bonus, you get access to federated service.
My advice is not specific to Matrix but other self hosted private services. Some of this may or may not be feasible with Matrix. (I have never used Matrix)
- Whether family or friends, always suggest it as a "fallback" for when "preferred service" is down and to use when discussion ultra-sensitive topics or sharing financial files. With time they may just stay connected to it if the friction to do so is low. It has to be their choice, not yours.
- What helps? Add more incentives such as perks that "preferred service" does not offer. No file size limits. No or few file type limits. No content filters. Add emoji's or gifs that align with their inside jokes and their style of humor. Keeping random people away is very important. Making your friends and family administrators or moderators and let them decide how it operates. Do not moderate or power-trip over your friends or family or they will leave. Limit rules to "Do not break the laws of this country in public chatrooms" and private chat rooms if you do not physically host the server. Database and file backups become even more important but they will feel in control of a thing. Have a keyword or code word they all learn means to go check the private platform that "primary platform" would not recognize. Maybe when they see "Turtle Farts!" they know to go log into your service.
- They may just stay on their primary preferred service. Every group is different and not every group will see the benefits of your fallback service. They may not appreciate the work you put into setting it up for them. Do not expect to get the friends of your friends and family to move to your service. They may not appreciate the OpSec value until "Bad Things"(c)™2038 happen to enough people. Just be there for when it does.
- If there are concerns that you would spy on them, consider instead using eJapperd or Prosody as you can implement OMEMO for individual and group end-to-end encrypted messages. Set up TLS fingerprint checks from multiple locations to reduce the risk of MitM attacks until XEP-0474: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection is fully supported and active by default on both servers and all clients. This is the only thing holding me back from setting up a public Prosody server as 0474 is still experimental. See [1]
- Avoid (block) federation on private servers for friends and family otherwise it is not a private server.
During Iran's Internet blackout, I set up a chatmail server on an interanet VPS, installed Delta Chat's client (https://delta.chat) on every family member's phone, and they are using it even now after the Internet is back.
I have tried Matrix, XMPP (Conversations), Signal and even some Nostr clients but Delta Chat has by far the best UX and reliability. It has groups, channels and private messages, stickers and built-in video calls. My only gripe is that it doesn't have video messages or screen share like Telegram yet.
If you want to try it out you're always welcome to message me.
Yep, I've moved my family over to Delta Chat/Arcane Chat and am pretty thrilled with everything. Major bonus over e.g. Matrix: hosting chatmail is quite easy and requires few resources.
Wow. Sounds interesting. I also looked for a solution to talk to relatives in case the internet gets blocked. Ended up with XMPP, since it has independent servers in different countries that can talk to each other. But the XMPP clients I tried are pretty bad, with no images or audio/video calls.
Did video calls work during the blackout too? I think calls should work like in the good old Skype days, pure P2P.
Another option to what Bender mentioned is that you run it within the local network (eg. on your ISP giving you an actual public IP) so even if international link is cut off, you are still on the same "subnet" (not in the IP sense).
The biggest challenge is DNS if that's restricted too, but sharing direct IP addresses will work.
Additionally, you might be able to run a local network by reusing home wifi APs, but that would be a lot more effort and would break where there is no reachability between two points (so might be good for cities to construct a local network, but not more than that).
Not the person you are asking but countries rarely block the internet for real. War torn countries will immediately block full MTU packets (bulk traffic packets, this will block streaming services), known social media platforms, known chat services. It will appear down. Cloudflare stats will give the appearance of being down but small unknown chat platforms may work for a little while. SSH may work even longer as they need SSH and even telnet to continue to manage infrastructure. That's why I keep an SSH chat server around. Feel free to play around with it. [1] When sharing with a person in a war torn country, give them the IP not the domain name. There will also be networks that allow leaders to bypass the "blocks".
[1] (customize username, paste into terminal, then type "chat") .:. This is a hardened private fork of devzat. shout-out to quackduck if he still logs in here.
Adding on to Bender's post, most of the blocking I've seen happens at consumer oriented ISPs. Sometimes the regulator only asks mobile carriers, so residential wired internet still works fine. Sometimes they'll get residential and mobile, but not offices. If there's in country servers/datacenters, those might not have filtering and also be reachable domestically.
It really depends a lot on what's going on that they want to block. Making it hard for people to do X is often good enough. For some things, making it unreliable is more effective than a complete block, because a complete block leads people towards circumvention but unreliability can push towards local alternatives instead.
This is one of the merits of federation, one that Signal doesn't have.
While the Internet is cut off in authoritarian regimes, the intranet (note the difference) rarely is. The regimes have to preserve the internal network in the country because otherwise financial infra like banking will be down too. So a VPS or a computer connected to a public IP inside the country is all you need.
Hadn't heard of that one before. The instant profile thing sounds a bit like Simplex Chat? (Which I would like to like, but the founder seems to be intent on shooting his feet off with altright twitter posts, sigh)
Curious if you've tried Snikket, and what hurdles you ran into (if you did). I made it with the primary purpose of moving my family communication over to XMPP, and I succeeded with that (improving a bunch of stuff in the process). I'm not claiming it's perfect (a known weak point is the iOS app, but we're actively working on solving that...)
I tried Snikket and ejabberd on the server and found Snikket way easier to use.
I haven't tried any Snikket clients because I'm tinkering with web apps to start and it looks like Snikket doesn't have a web client yet outside of the admin portal.
I really like that Snikket allows me to create invitations without relying on SMTP. I love having it just as a URL I can send however I want.
I wish I kept better notes on my Snikket onboarding because I did run into a few hiccups.
I find the concept of "Circles" unclear because I don't understand how it differs from regular users. Thinking about it more, I'm assuming the idea is that I might have a family group and a college friends group, but I don't want my dumb college friends messaging my mom even though they're all on the same server?
My more superficial note is that I find the admin UX a little rough. It feels a little early 2000s design where everything is a form submit when there could be more JS interactivity (and this is coming from someone who hates JS frameworks but likes minimalist JS like htmx). And there are four top-level admin actions, and one of them is "Invitations" but that seems to duplicate everything available to me under "Users."
Yeah, no web client yet, but we're working on a web app (it exists already, but doesn't do end-to-end encryption fully yet, also no video calls). My primary use case for Snikket was displacing things like WhatsApp where web usage is (in my experience) rare, so the focus has been on mobile apps.
Circles - yes, you got it. Initially we launched without circles, and some people complained they couldn't invite friends to their server without those friends mixing with their family members by default. I wasn't sure at first, but now even use this feature myself for e.g. a "Games night" circle. You can read more about the feature here: https://snikket.org/service/help/features/circles/
And yes, I totally get what you mean about the web dashboard. We're toying with replacing it at some point (partly because the backend is Python, and it uses over 2x the RAM of the chat server when idle!).
I manually installed Conversations.im on their phones configuring accounts, joining groups etc then on my phone I've disabled notifications on other chat apps. If they want something, XMPP is the only way to reliably reach me. Over time they grew to like it even though it's not perfect (eg. no built-in gallery or message retraction).
Matrix is bad, the protocol is complex, sync is bad, it uses a lot of resources... I had only bad experience with it.
I have an XMPP server which works on a small server, it has been running for nearly 10 years with 0 issues. We are about 20 on it.
I didn't convince them, I installed the client on their device and told them "use this icon to talk to me". Then they realized they could talk to each other. They don't care about anything else.
What I'd like to see in an XMPP client:
On desktop:
- something lighter, dino is not bad, but it can use quite a lot of CPU
- better theming, some people like bubbles, other prefer irc like
- GIF picker, it could require a server side proxy I don't care, I just want it
- better control when sending image (crop, quality...)
On mobile:
- better sharing (vcard, image with good control)
- GIF picker
- a few UI tweaks, like text colors and layout
In trying, I discovered that most family members don't want to use anything that lets the government spy on its users, but one sibling is against privacy in general and only wants to use platforms that allow the government to spy on users, so there's no solution.
interesting, most of my family and friends simply don't care one way or another, as long as it is convenient to use (for which whatsapp et al. win by a mile)
I believe strongly in the mission of decentralizing the web, so I have relentlessly annoyed everyone into using matrix and/or Signal (not perfect but better). You have to set expectations that you won't convert everyone and that FOSS has warts. For that reason I bridge everything and always meet people where they are and constantly show off to them that even if they sms/telegram/WhatsApp/messenger/slack/discord/signal me then I get it in one app with no tracking or ads on my physical phone that I carry in my pocket. Many people in my social circle hate telegram but have to use it, so bridging that was a big selling point for example.
I also periodically take advantage of news stories that trend like when discord was going to ID people, I made a point to bring that up to convert more people, and always get a couple new takers.
When something fails to work like group messages fracturing or big files not sharing well with iPhone users, I make clear the practical value of having our own control and resources as a social network.
I also try to make sure my server has useful bots, a small thing but every bit of utility and differentiation with proprietary services helps.
I share guides on how to get back in, one thing people get confused about is that they don't have to give PII but they do need to remember the home server URL and save their key and password. So making sure to have ready pointers and blurbs on how to login that you can share quickly is necessary because people inevitably get logged out, especially iPhone users get confused easily (for app store culture reasons I think) and need kind but eager assistance.
I try to make sure we have well moderated safe space e2ee rooms to talk about hard issues, and people do realize over time that certain things are more awkward to say digitally if you know it could be being surveilled or tracked, even the metadata.
I've also encouraged technical friends to run their own servers and federate, got a couple to actually do it which is a cool feeling.
It takes time (years), patience, and effort, but many little pushes will build a community.
> I also try to make sure my server has useful bots, a small thing but every bit of utility and differentiation with proprietary services helps.
Can you share more about this? I hadn't thought about this, but that's an advantage over SMS, though I don't have good ideas for bots my friends/family would enjoy.
> For that reason I bridge everything and always meet people where they are and constantly show off to them that even if they sms/telegram/WhatsApp/messenger/slack/discord/signal me then I get it in one app with no tracking or ads on my physical phone that I carry in my pocket.
How do you bridge SMS/WhatsApp to Matrix? Something like Beeper?
It's not an attractive experience. Too much technical mumbu jumbo in the interface and configuration no one understands. Signal is the only way to reach me online and it's been a breeze with a few people for years.
But to answer your question, Rocket Chat is the most noob friendly client.
XMPP is a no go, sorry. There's just no good iOS app (or Android, I think). And you can't come back and say some app you love is feature complete, or whatever. It has to LOOK good.
Matrix will work though. Element X is very polished. Same with FluffyChat. However, I still only bother with getting my immediate household to use it. A "family" chat is totally fine with me. And that let's me hook bots and agents up to it.
For a little plug... it's can very easy, in fact, to get a Matrix server set up these days, including full voice and video chat:
Matrix is good as a LiveKit client who support active call, like a phone call, and good enough for passively share screen (no remote input supported for now). Not good for chat.
A good FLOSS internal chat is Zulip, a passable one is Mattermost (who is better for many things, but being "Open Source Enterprise" is largely a no-go IMO.
Zulip+DocMost are Slack+Confluence. Zulip support calls as well, but via Jisti and they aren't much nice IMO.
I know that Mattermost came with Gitlab, but didn't like it at the time (but that was like 6-7 years ago, so it might have been better). We were somewhat spoiled with how good Telegram desktop application was/is, so at the time didn't want to move.
However, as the company grows and its processes become more complex, a simple chat application is no longer sufficient. We need a more integrated collaboration platform that connects seamlessly with Jira and other company systems, supporting our organizational structure, workflows, and policies.
If Zulip and Mattermost are in the running (no E2EE), Fluxer should be as well. Their client is a super slick discord clone, and it's very easy to self host. Federation is coming soon as well.
Small group, but we have communication all-around the place.
Throughout different chat apps(telegram, WhatsApp, Microsoft teams with some clients, etc.). This is from legacy days when the team was small and number of projects/clients were few.
I mean the team is still relatively small (around 20) plus external stakeholders.
You won't. The modern world has created people that are very, very bad at protecting themselves. The good horrible thing is that the walls are starting to close in. Perhaps it will wake some people out of their stupor. Once they realize that every bit of info they give to these companies is being actively used against them.
Have you ever seen Plaid's TOS? They literally say you give them permission to spy on your entire financial/banking life for THIRTY yes 30 YEARS!! If you click accept on their usually required tos for whatever financial service you are using that no one reads. What do you think they do with that info? Well if you have seen the rise in prices its not due to inflation it is things like dynamic pricing and the salesperson knowing to the penny how much money you can spend TODAY. You tell the car dealer for instance you can only afford 50k but they know for a fact you have 55K, they are not budging and neither is any other dealer because they all have the same info.
That is just one example, and yes I understand that inflation is a factor but inflation did not raise prices 400% all across the board everywhere. Thats why its confusing when you see the governement saying inflation is bad but not terrible. They are not lying...precisely. They of course are not doing anything about regulating the price gouging and one sided "value extraction" or the open collusion of corporations through obvious third party sacrificial entities.
ship a custom mobile and desktop app bound to your server for zero config setup, can be a fork of open source (ideal), then if you have zero friction youll get buy in
I've tried the inverse and failed. Meaning my family/friends do accept Element/X but not XMPP with all the clients I've tried. Which one you recommend?
Matrix is still horrible. Element web is definition of bloat. Encryption mismatch issues. Device not verified issues. Did someone say metadata issues???
Signal just works. It acts like a feature rich messenger. XMPP/Matrix just isnt that good for the average person.
How about vibe-coding your own multi-platform XMPP client first ? The one that suites your needs, that has all the contemporary features and is not a bloat. We all will say thanks to you. :)
You are getting downvoted, but i can't help but wonder the same thing. Matrix/element is one of the worst chat clients i have ever used. Nothing works.
Forget normal people. How are you convincing techies to use this. Obviously there are other open source E2E encrypted chat programs that are half decent, but i never understand how people are convinced to use matrix of all things.
I was convinced to move into the Matrix ecosystem because of the promise/focus on bridging it into other things. I was hoping the clients would improve enough to be usable.
I think that was 5 or 6 years ago, and I'm convinced the clients have somehow gotten worse. That may just be perception though.
I haven't bothered looking for new clients though since the 'vibe-coding era' has begun, maybe something else has come along.
I remember trying to convince my friends to switch to Signal several times, and only a few listened. Then Elon publicly endorsed it (back in 2020 or something when a lot of people in my circles still saw him as a hero), and many of my friends joined. Some still use it.
but yeah I stopped pushing like long time ago.
Some of my friends are geeks any way so they use it on there own (always brings me joy when i just meet someone and find out they use Signal, not this is how I choose friends though), and I use XMPP as my main messaging protocol (through a public server). But with family, it’s mostly WhatsApp unfortunately.
Can you share more about how you use XMPP? It sounds like nobody you know uses it, but you also said it's your main messaging gateway, so I'm confused about how that works. Like you have XMPP bridges to Signal and Whatsapp? Do you have a solution for SMS?
oh, I use https://jmp.chat which gives you a real phone number, and you text someone by sending an XMPP message to an address that encodes their number then JMP’s server converts it to a normal SMS and passes it to a telecom carrier and vise versa.
not really best for privacy (since the carrier would know/see the content of the message) but at least the number is detached from your identity and device and the number isn't tied to your physical location (if using wifi)
good luck getting people to install a 17th messenger app just to talk to you. I still don't know how I managed to get a few folks to install signal, looks like it was pure luck - pitched at the right time when Zuck was on a anti-privacy bender.
> How did you convince friends and family to move away from SMS/WhatsApp and replace it with a niche messaging app?
My pitch was simply that I will no longer be using surveillance capitalism products on principle, and I am willing to explain more to anyone interested or help anyone switch. Then I stopped using said services.
This is a lifestyle choice and those that love you will respect it just the same as if you went vegan or something. You do not need permission from others to make an choice about what you are or are not comfortable consuming in your life.
Talked to some people via intentional phone calls or in person visits and the ones that really want to have async communication with me signed up for matrix one by one. Now my family and inlaws are all on matrix with no algorithms or spies in the mix.
There are a number of former friends that are only comfortable communicating online with well known product brands even if they are being spied on and exploited. That is unfortunate, but it is a quick filter to see who actually respects your values and values real communication with you specifically, and who just wants an easy audience for their shitposts and conspiracy memes.
The real divide here is not technological divide, it's a class divide.
I have mingled close enough with high net worth people to know they'll use 501c3-Signal's hosted service, Telegram, or even WhatsApp and other normie trash to reach an audience when doing so is convenient for them.
But amongst their legit peers and family they don't use any of that. Some of them use supported forks of the Signal software. Many of them use Matrix and grew up with XMPP so some of them use that too. SimpleX has made great strides here but there are more to be done.
These are not people who personally find computers interesting.
Maybe you'd think many of them are using iOS, macOS, or Windows, and they do have those for some things some of the time. But only some of the time.
FOSS' "free market" angle is very strong for clients of enough worth to fund skilled resources who can actively develop and maintain hardened systems suitable to defend the interests of estates, portfolio, larger family, and lives ultimately.
FOSS' "free market" angle enables for protection at a strata that no normie tier closed source OS will ever provide for. See Reproducible Builds and GNU Guix' Bootstrappable Builds for example.
"Bro, just trust us", isn't good enough. Not for people of responsibility. Not for people who love their own family.
Randomly "getting hacked" is not a thing along this strata of upper class.
Some not born into family with big money make a choice to pursue literacy.
In this decade, literacy in network protocols, cryptography, operating system, and userspace software is literacy. Lack of this is illiteracy.
Some live under the shadow of some harsh lesson learned by the family or some personal life lesson. Others didn't grow up in the West and aren't "blue pill" on the topic of government.
The East German Stasi, and that the Stasi's primary concern were "average people" with a little too much of an opinion, is still in living memory for a lot of people.
Others simply know for themselves what they are worth to themselves. Ultimately, sovereignty and dignity are their own spiritual choice. Some make that choice.
So again, it's a class issue.
_
Consider the above.
If you have friends and family who relentlessly pour data into Discord, WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook, "the phone" and SMS, or even 501c3-Signal (sees all metadata), take some time to think about what strata they are of and what their lives are ultimately worth, by their own definition as espoused by their actions, choices, and thought (or lack thereof).
With a bird's eye view of your social graph, if you aren't already doing cicd privately for Bootstrappable Builds of your own software stack or aren't paying some elite literate team to do that for you, nor are you itching to, that bird's eye view of your social graph might also help you understand what class you are of.
_
I know what strata I am of.
Here is the reality. Some people are actually better than some other people, morally and metaphysically. If anyone derides you for acknowledging this truth, they're telling you what strata they are of (and belong in).
It's not XMPP, but I face the same issue with an app for organizing outings among friends. I've stopped asking people, friends and family alike, to install something before they have a reason to. Otherwise they install it and never use it. Instead the app generates an event link that opens in a browser and shows the place, the time and how many are going. Those who want to confirm or create an event of their own install the app. The others can still turn up. Perhaps the same logic could apply to a server: an invitation that works before any installation is required, with the app as the next step.
Just a little shout out to chatto (https://chatto.run/), which is the best slack/discord alternative i've seen so far. Not federated or crypto based, but just a solid chat platform.
I know this isn't the answer you want, but I sell people on Signal based on the user features. I’ve had great success in getting my friends and family to adopt it.
Signal is incredible user friendly, privacy respecting, the gold standard for encryption, cross platform, etc. Yes, it’s centralized, yes it’s imperfect in many ways, but it’s easy and it’s pretty damn good.
If you want to help the people around you to become more involved in understanding and owning their tech, it has to be an easy and good experience. It has to be tangibly better, not just abstractly better with tangible downsides.
I use XMPP, but would never try to convince my friends and family to use it; it’s too complicated, the user facing apps all suck (Snikket and Cheogram are the best of the bad lot), and the incentives to use it aren't there. As you said, it’s just not attractive to a regular user, since it’s all around a worse experience than what they currently use. The one exception is that I do occasionally recommend XMPP for SIP access via jmp.chat to some of my more technical friends who have a tolerance for clunky user experiences in favor of privacy and affordability. I am holding onto an unreasonable hope that Signal or Whatsapp or others will consider XMPP+OMEO in the future to popularize the standard, but that is extremely unlikely.
Matrix also is an unfortunately terrible alternative to discord (even Element is a rather lacking user experience), so while I have pushed to move groups there before, I no longer recommend Matrix. I suggest signal or nextcloud as alternatives when possible; the remaining large groups who need the closed server forum style system are usually unlikely to move to Matrix anyway.
Signal is a non starter for me. Centralized, requires everyone that uses it identify themselves, and they can and will use it to shill their crypto tokens or any features they want and you have no say. Its no different than Whatsapp to me.
If I cannot host it myself if I want to, or use it anonymously if I want to, then its not sovereign tech and not worth a second of my energy convincing anyone to use, especially when sovereign alternatives exist.
Matrix is by far the most usable sovereign option so it is what I switched my personal network to.
>requires everyone that uses it identify themselves
they have username based accounts now, you don't need a phone number anymore.
> Its no different than Whatsapp to me.
Seriously?
In my mental model, Matrix (specifically Element) is decentralized Signal. In other words: a modern encrypted messenger that is protocol-based and so allows users to control their data if they so wish.
If this picture is accurate, then the promised land is only two steps away: (1) make available a reliable default Matrix server for normies who don't care about privacy; (2) polish up the UX of Element.
What am I getting wrong?
#1 and #2 are easy to conceptualize but very difficult to build and maintain. Basically, the problem is that people don't fund open source unless they can monetize it.
I’m afraid this approach to UI as an after thought is what leads to them being so shit in the first place.
Simplex.chat is decentralized signal
I have gotten all my family and even inlaws onto Signal. (It helps that it lets Android users send higher quality pictures than SMS to iOS users, while not being social media like Whatsapp, ie. great for groups that include kids.)
But I can't even decide on a matrix/xmpp client for myself, much less for family or friends.
Yep, this is the insight that so many ideological purists are missing, in the privacy space and in free software more broadly. A 90% solution that "just works" is infinitely better than a 100% solution that nobody is going to use.
I've likewise had success getting people onto Signal. One easy selling point over SMS/MMS: pictures and video have much higher quality.
I also pretty much gave up, and now I recommend Signal.
But XMPP doesn't have to be complicated. It just needs a popular server with a good client. Yes, there are good servers and there are good clients, but none of them provide a streamlined experience. It should be like Google Talk used to be: most people knew nothing about XMPP. But as a bonus, you get access to federated service.
I learned a long time ago that things like this might be really important to me but fall below the noise floor for everyone else.
Unless everyone in your circle is on HN all the time, you will probably fail to convince them to change.
The more likely outcome is that you wind up annoying everyone involved and don't get invited to the new discord server.
My advice is not specific to Matrix but other self hosted private services. Some of this may or may not be feasible with Matrix. (I have never used Matrix)
- Whether family or friends, always suggest it as a "fallback" for when "preferred service" is down and to use when discussion ultra-sensitive topics or sharing financial files. With time they may just stay connected to it if the friction to do so is low. It has to be their choice, not yours.
- What helps? Add more incentives such as perks that "preferred service" does not offer. No file size limits. No or few file type limits. No content filters. Add emoji's or gifs that align with their inside jokes and their style of humor. Keeping random people away is very important. Making your friends and family administrators or moderators and let them decide how it operates. Do not moderate or power-trip over your friends or family or they will leave. Limit rules to "Do not break the laws of this country in public chatrooms" and private chat rooms if you do not physically host the server. Database and file backups become even more important but they will feel in control of a thing. Have a keyword or code word they all learn means to go check the private platform that "primary platform" would not recognize. Maybe when they see "Turtle Farts!" they know to go log into your service.
- They may just stay on their primary preferred service. Every group is different and not every group will see the benefits of your fallback service. They may not appreciate the work you put into setting it up for them. Do not expect to get the friends of your friends and family to move to your service. They may not appreciate the OpSec value until "Bad Things"(c)™2038 happen to enough people. Just be there for when it does.
- If there are concerns that you would spy on them, consider instead using eJapperd or Prosody as you can implement OMEMO for individual and group end-to-end encrypted messages. Set up TLS fingerprint checks from multiple locations to reduce the risk of MitM attacks until XEP-0474: SASL SCRAM Downgrade Protection is fully supported and active by default on both servers and all clients. This is the only thing holding me back from setting up a public Prosody server as 0474 is still experimental. See [1]
- Avoid (block) federation on private servers for friends and family otherwise it is not a private server.
[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37955264
this is great advice, thanks
Well, my folks live/visit countries with insane govt censorship, so it was quite easy: I just said our private XMPP server is a good reserve comms channel, and over time they just got used to the peace of mind that it gives to them. Decent android (https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.siacs.conversations/) + web (https://github.com/nioc/xmpp-web) clients played vital role though. Also, shout out to Delta Chat! (https://f-droid.org/packages/com.b44t.messenger/)
During Iran's Internet blackout, I set up a chatmail server on an interanet VPS, installed Delta Chat's client (https://delta.chat) on every family member's phone, and they are using it even now after the Internet is back.
I have tried Matrix, XMPP (Conversations), Signal and even some Nostr clients but Delta Chat has by far the best UX and reliability. It has groups, channels and private messages, stickers and built-in video calls. My only gripe is that it doesn't have video messages or screen share like Telegram yet.
If you want to try it out you're always welcome to message me.
Yep, I've moved my family over to Delta Chat/Arcane Chat and am pretty thrilled with everything. Major bonus over e.g. Matrix: hosting chatmail is quite easy and requires few resources.
Wow. Sounds interesting. I also looked for a solution to talk to relatives in case the internet gets blocked. Ended up with XMPP, since it has independent servers in different countries that can talk to each other. But the XMPP clients I tried are pretty bad, with no images or audio/video calls.
Did video calls work during the blackout too? I think calls should work like in the good old Skype days, pure P2P.
Yes, the chatmail servers (https://chatmail.at) come with a coturn server that keeps the video calls P2P if possible.
I am going to bite - how would servers work in other country if you have internet blocked, what am i missing here?
Another option to what Bender mentioned is that you run it within the local network (eg. on your ISP giving you an actual public IP) so even if international link is cut off, you are still on the same "subnet" (not in the IP sense).
The biggest challenge is DNS if that's restricted too, but sharing direct IP addresses will work.
Additionally, you might be able to run a local network by reusing home wifi APs, but that would be a lot more effort and would break where there is no reachability between two points (so might be good for cities to construct a local network, but not more than that).
Not the person you are asking but countries rarely block the internet for real. War torn countries will immediately block full MTU packets (bulk traffic packets, this will block streaming services), known social media platforms, known chat services. It will appear down. Cloudflare stats will give the appearance of being down but small unknown chat platforms may work for a little while. SSH may work even longer as they need SSH and even telnet to continue to manage infrastructure. That's why I keep an SSH chat server around. Feel free to play around with it. [1] When sharing with a person in a war torn country, give them the IP not the domain name. There will also be networks that allow leaders to bypass the "blocks".
[1] (customize username, paste into terminal, then type "chat") .:. This is a hardened private fork of devzat. shout-out to quackduck if he still logs in here.
Useful commands to start with are "help", "cmds" and "rest". There is no censorship.Adding on to Bender's post, most of the blocking I've seen happens at consumer oriented ISPs. Sometimes the regulator only asks mobile carriers, so residential wired internet still works fine. Sometimes they'll get residential and mobile, but not offices. If there's in country servers/datacenters, those might not have filtering and also be reachable domestically.
It really depends a lot on what's going on that they want to block. Making it hard for people to do X is often good enough. For some things, making it unreliable is more effective than a complete block, because a complete block leads people towards circumvention but unreliability can push towards local alternatives instead.
This is one of the merits of federation, one that Signal doesn't have.
While the Internet is cut off in authoritarian regimes, the intranet (note the difference) rarely is. The regimes have to preserve the internal network in the country because otherwise financial infra like banking will be down too. So a VPS or a computer connected to a public IP inside the country is all you need.
Hadn't heard of that one before. The instant profile thing sounds a bit like Simplex Chat? (Which I would like to like, but the founder seems to be intent on shooting his feet off with altright twitter posts, sigh)
Curious if you've tried Snikket, and what hurdles you ran into (if you did). I made it with the primary purpose of moving my family communication over to XMPP, and I succeeded with that (improving a bunch of stuff in the process). I'm not claiming it's perfect (a known weak point is the iOS app, but we're actively working on solving that...)
Thanks for creating Snikket!
I tried Snikket and ejabberd on the server and found Snikket way easier to use.
I haven't tried any Snikket clients because I'm tinkering with web apps to start and it looks like Snikket doesn't have a web client yet outside of the admin portal.
I really like that Snikket allows me to create invitations without relying on SMTP. I love having it just as a URL I can send however I want.
I wish I kept better notes on my Snikket onboarding because I did run into a few hiccups.
I find the concept of "Circles" unclear because I don't understand how it differs from regular users. Thinking about it more, I'm assuming the idea is that I might have a family group and a college friends group, but I don't want my dumb college friends messaging my mom even though they're all on the same server?
My more superficial note is that I find the admin UX a little rough. It feels a little early 2000s design where everything is a form submit when there could be more JS interactivity (and this is coming from someone who hates JS frameworks but likes minimalist JS like htmx). And there are four top-level admin actions, and one of them is "Invitations" but that seems to duplicate everything available to me under "Users."
Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah, no web client yet, but we're working on a web app (it exists already, but doesn't do end-to-end encryption fully yet, also no video calls). My primary use case for Snikket was displacing things like WhatsApp where web usage is (in my experience) rare, so the focus has been on mobile apps.
Circles - yes, you got it. Initially we launched without circles, and some people complained they couldn't invite friends to their server without those friends mixing with their family members by default. I wasn't sure at first, but now even use this feature myself for e.g. a "Games night" circle. You can read more about the feature here: https://snikket.org/service/help/features/circles/
And yes, I totally get what you mean about the web dashboard. We're toying with replacing it at some point (partly because the backend is Python, and it uses over 2x the RAM of the chat server when idle!).
''right now we want to focus on doing one thing and doing it well''
https://snikket.org/about/goals
kudos to that!
I manually installed Conversations.im on their phones configuring accounts, joining groups etc then on my phone I've disabled notifications on other chat apps. If they want something, XMPP is the only way to reliably reach me. Over time they grew to like it even though it's not perfect (eg. no built-in gallery or message retraction).
The OP is asking for suggestions and you've instead done some weird brag that makes you look bad.
Don't fuck with people's notification settings.
"then on my phone I've disabled notifications "
Perhaps read that again. Then appologize.
Yep, fair shout. I did absolutely misread that but I still think it's some weird brag that doesn't address the question in the slightest.
I do still stand by not fucking with people's notifications but you did not do that and I retract that.
I must have blinked and missed the apology in that comment.
Matrix is bad, the protocol is complex, sync is bad, it uses a lot of resources... I had only bad experience with it.
I have an XMPP server which works on a small server, it has been running for nearly 10 years with 0 issues. We are about 20 on it.
I didn't convince them, I installed the client on their device and told them "use this icon to talk to me". Then they realized they could talk to each other. They don't care about anything else.
What I'd like to see in an XMPP client:
On desktop:
- something lighter, dino is not bad, but it can use quite a lot of CPU - better theming, some people like bubbles, other prefer irc like - GIF picker, it could require a server side proxy I don't care, I just want it - better control when sending image (crop, quality...)
On mobile:
- better sharing (vcard, image with good control) - GIF picker - a few UI tweaks, like text colors and layout
In trying, I discovered that most family members don't want to use anything that lets the government spy on its users, but one sibling is against privacy in general and only wants to use platforms that allow the government to spy on users, so there's no solution.
interesting, most of my family and friends simply don't care one way or another, as long as it is convenient to use (for which whatsapp et al. win by a mile)
Does anyone know if Chat Control 2.0 will cover self-hosted services?
I believe strongly in the mission of decentralizing the web, so I have relentlessly annoyed everyone into using matrix and/or Signal (not perfect but better). You have to set expectations that you won't convert everyone and that FOSS has warts. For that reason I bridge everything and always meet people where they are and constantly show off to them that even if they sms/telegram/WhatsApp/messenger/slack/discord/signal me then I get it in one app with no tracking or ads on my physical phone that I carry in my pocket. Many people in my social circle hate telegram but have to use it, so bridging that was a big selling point for example.
I also periodically take advantage of news stories that trend like when discord was going to ID people, I made a point to bring that up to convert more people, and always get a couple new takers.
When something fails to work like group messages fracturing or big files not sharing well with iPhone users, I make clear the practical value of having our own control and resources as a social network.
I also try to make sure my server has useful bots, a small thing but every bit of utility and differentiation with proprietary services helps.
I share guides on how to get back in, one thing people get confused about is that they don't have to give PII but they do need to remember the home server URL and save their key and password. So making sure to have ready pointers and blurbs on how to login that you can share quickly is necessary because people inevitably get logged out, especially iPhone users get confused easily (for app store culture reasons I think) and need kind but eager assistance.
I try to make sure we have well moderated safe space e2ee rooms to talk about hard issues, and people do realize over time that certain things are more awkward to say digitally if you know it could be being surveilled or tracked, even the metadata.
I've also encouraged technical friends to run their own servers and federate, got a couple to actually do it which is a cool feeling.
It takes time (years), patience, and effort, but many little pushes will build a community.
Thanks for sharing!
> I also try to make sure my server has useful bots, a small thing but every bit of utility and differentiation with proprietary services helps.
Can you share more about this? I hadn't thought about this, but that's an advantage over SMS, though I don't have good ideas for bots my friends/family would enjoy.
> For that reason I bridge everything and always meet people where they are and constantly show off to them that even if they sms/telegram/WhatsApp/messenger/slack/discord/signal me then I get it in one app with no tracking or ads on my physical phone that I carry in my pocket.
How do you bridge SMS/WhatsApp to Matrix? Something like Beeper?
This playbook organizes a lot of the useful bots and bridges https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy, I've mostly customized on top of this set.
I was in a very different situation. Microsoft decided to stop supporting Skype, which we had been using for 15 or so years. We moved to Matrix.
Weird how badly MS bungled Skype. It was the online video calling/meeting platform. It had become a verb: I'll skype you at 2:00.
I still use it as a verb! Except now we skype on Signal.
What would you rather have?
The best video calling platform?
Or immunity from anti-trust as long as you weaken the encryption of Internet communications?
It's not an attractive experience. Too much technical mumbu jumbo in the interface and configuration no one understands. Signal is the only way to reach me online and it's been a breeze with a few people for years.
But to answer your question, Rocket Chat is the most noob friendly client.
>Ask HN: How did you convince family and friends to join your XMPP/Matrix server?
I didn't, that's not something you ask 'normal' people to do.
… why? Are you pushing this on people for their good, or for yours?
XMPP is a no go, sorry. There's just no good iOS app (or Android, I think). And you can't come back and say some app you love is feature complete, or whatever. It has to LOOK good.
Matrix will work though. Element X is very polished. Same with FluffyChat. However, I still only bother with getting my immediate household to use it. A "family" chat is totally fine with me. And that let's me hook bots and agents up to it.
For a little plug... it's can very easy, in fact, to get a Matrix server set up these days, including full voice and video chat:
https://github.com/pkulak/barnaby-home
Why are you dead set on self hosting? Signal is probably an easier lift
I said "you can use this app to talk to me"
Me too, I failed with XMPP, but Matrix/ElementX got a bit of success.
What "XMPP" did you use?
Is Matrix a good solution for internal company communication? Or is it better to go the way of "industry standard" like slack?
Matrix is good as a LiveKit client who support active call, like a phone call, and good enough for passively share screen (no remote input supported for now). Not good for chat.
A good FLOSS internal chat is Zulip, a passable one is Mattermost (who is better for many things, but being "Open Source Enterprise" is largely a no-go IMO.
Zulip+DocMost are Slack+Confluence. Zulip support calls as well, but via Jisti and they aren't much nice IMO.
I know that Mattermost came with Gitlab, but didn't like it at the time (but that was like 6-7 years ago, so it might have been better). We were somewhat spoiled with how good Telegram desktop application was/is, so at the time didn't want to move. However, as the company grows and its processes become more complex, a simple chat application is no longer sufficient. We need a more integrated collaboration platform that connects seamlessly with Jira and other company systems, supporting our organizational structure, workflows, and policies.
Will look into Zulip, thx.
If Zulip and Mattermost are in the running (no E2EE), Fluxer should be as well. Their client is a super slick discord clone, and it's very easy to self host. Federation is coming soon as well.
Depends on the company.
If small enough, group chats will work just fine with less struggle and overhead.
If larger, possibly.
NextCloud may do much of what you need.
Small group, but we have communication all-around the place. Throughout different chat apps(telegram, WhatsApp, Microsoft teams with some clients, etc.). This is from legacy days when the team was small and number of projects/clients were few.
I mean the team is still relatively small (around 20) plus external stakeholders.
I will look into NextCloud, thx.
I just annoy them, but it backfired with Plex. now they are begging for user accounts for their friends/co-workers and I can't keep up*
You won't. The modern world has created people that are very, very bad at protecting themselves. The good horrible thing is that the walls are starting to close in. Perhaps it will wake some people out of their stupor. Once they realize that every bit of info they give to these companies is being actively used against them.
Have you ever seen Plaid's TOS? They literally say you give them permission to spy on your entire financial/banking life for THIRTY yes 30 YEARS!! If you click accept on their usually required tos for whatever financial service you are using that no one reads. What do you think they do with that info? Well if you have seen the rise in prices its not due to inflation it is things like dynamic pricing and the salesperson knowing to the penny how much money you can spend TODAY. You tell the car dealer for instance you can only afford 50k but they know for a fact you have 55K, they are not budging and neither is any other dealer because they all have the same info.
That is just one example, and yes I understand that inflation is a factor but inflation did not raise prices 400% all across the board everywhere. Thats why its confusing when you see the governement saying inflation is bad but not terrible. They are not lying...precisely. They of course are not doing anything about regulating the price gouging and one sided "value extraction" or the open collusion of corporations through obvious third party sacrificial entities.
ship a custom mobile and desktop app bound to your server for zero config setup, can be a fork of open source (ideal), then if you have zero friction youll get buy in
It was easy getting the family I talked to on Matrix to switch to XMPP, all I had to say was "imagine Element, but it actually works".
How did you get them on Matrix?
I've tried the inverse and failed. Meaning my family/friends do accept Element/X but not XMPP with all the clients I've tried. Which one you recommend?
Matrix is still horrible. Element web is definition of bloat. Encryption mismatch issues. Device not verified issues. Did someone say metadata issues???
Signal just works. It acts like a feature rich messenger. XMPP/Matrix just isnt that good for the average person.
How about vibe-coding your own multi-platform XMPP client first ? The one that suites your needs, that has all the contemporary features and is not a bloat. We all will say thanks to you. :)
Make sure that everyone in your family is a huge nerd. That’s the only way.
Improbable. This technology does not have a stable client and is overrun by garbage.
Try vibe coding your own app that your family and friends would install, and have this as the background communication layer.
Good luck!
You are getting downvoted, but i can't help but wonder the same thing. Matrix/element is one of the worst chat clients i have ever used. Nothing works.
Forget normal people. How are you convincing techies to use this. Obviously there are other open source E2E encrypted chat programs that are half decent, but i never understand how people are convinced to use matrix of all things.
I was convinced to move into the Matrix ecosystem because of the promise/focus on bridging it into other things. I was hoping the clients would improve enough to be usable.
I think that was 5 or 6 years ago, and I'm convinced the clients have somehow gotten worse. That may just be perception though.
I haven't bothered looking for new clients though since the 'vibe-coding era' has begun, maybe something else has come along.
Some people are drawn to complexity and tinkering. Many of them work in tech.
what things didn't work, and what server & version of Element were you using?
I keep wondering how people are getting it working and are happy with it. My homelab runs like 60 services, but I gave up on matrix
Didn't. Use Signal instead. It's WhatsApp but blue. Nothing to explain.
I remember trying to convince my friends to switch to Signal several times, and only a few listened. Then Elon publicly endorsed it (back in 2020 or something when a lot of people in my circles still saw him as a hero), and many of my friends joined. Some still use it. but yeah I stopped pushing like long time ago.
Some of my friends are geeks any way so they use it on there own (always brings me joy when i just meet someone and find out they use Signal, not this is how I choose friends though), and I use XMPP as my main messaging protocol (through a public server). But with family, it’s mostly WhatsApp unfortunately.
Can you share more about how you use XMPP? It sounds like nobody you know uses it, but you also said it's your main messaging gateway, so I'm confused about how that works. Like you have XMPP bridges to Signal and Whatsapp? Do you have a solution for SMS?
oh, I use https://jmp.chat which gives you a real phone number, and you text someone by sending an XMPP message to an address that encodes their number then JMP’s server converts it to a normal SMS and passes it to a telecom carrier and vise versa.
not really best for privacy (since the carrier would know/see the content of the message) but at least the number is detached from your identity and device and the number isn't tied to your physical location (if using wifi)
That's helpful thanks!
That's the neat part, I didn't!
The network effect is real.
Some are higher information than others!
Tell your patriarch
First step:
Never, ever utter the term “XMPP server” to them.
Real talk. Maybe don't even headline/initially mention that it's something you run or administer (even though you're proud of it).
good luck getting people to install a 17th messenger app just to talk to you. I still don't know how I managed to get a few folks to install signal, looks like it was pure luck - pitched at the right time when Zuck was on a anti-privacy bender.
Take their phone and set it up, including the chat with you.
Show them the icon.
Listen to them bitch about the differences from what they’re used to, and inconvenience of “needing to check a second place”.
If it doesn’t work that way, or if the bitching lasts longer than 1 week to 1 month, you’ve bit off more than you can chew, abort.
> What do you recommend others do to make XMPP or Matrix an attractive experience for a regular person?
Be someone they really want to be any to reach!
> How did you convince friends and family to move away from SMS/WhatsApp and replace it with a niche messaging app?
My pitch was simply that I will no longer be using surveillance capitalism products on principle, and I am willing to explain more to anyone interested or help anyone switch. Then I stopped using said services.
This is a lifestyle choice and those that love you will respect it just the same as if you went vegan or something. You do not need permission from others to make an choice about what you are or are not comfortable consuming in your life.
Talked to some people via intentional phone calls or in person visits and the ones that really want to have async communication with me signed up for matrix one by one. Now my family and inlaws are all on matrix with no algorithms or spies in the mix.
There are a number of former friends that are only comfortable communicating online with well known product brands even if they are being spied on and exploited. That is unfortunate, but it is a quick filter to see who actually respects your values and values real communication with you specifically, and who just wants an easy audience for their shitposts and conspiracy memes.
The real divide here is not technological divide, it's a class divide.
I have mingled close enough with high net worth people to know they'll use 501c3-Signal's hosted service, Telegram, or even WhatsApp and other normie trash to reach an audience when doing so is convenient for them.
But amongst their legit peers and family they don't use any of that. Some of them use supported forks of the Signal software. Many of them use Matrix and grew up with XMPP so some of them use that too. SimpleX has made great strides here but there are more to be done.
These are not people who personally find computers interesting.
Maybe you'd think many of them are using iOS, macOS, or Windows, and they do have those for some things some of the time. But only some of the time.
FOSS' "free market" angle is very strong for clients of enough worth to fund skilled resources who can actively develop and maintain hardened systems suitable to defend the interests of estates, portfolio, larger family, and lives ultimately.
FOSS' "free market" angle enables for protection at a strata that no normie tier closed source OS will ever provide for. See Reproducible Builds and GNU Guix' Bootstrappable Builds for example.
"Bro, just trust us", isn't good enough. Not for people of responsibility. Not for people who love their own family.
Randomly "getting hacked" is not a thing along this strata of upper class.
Some not born into family with big money make a choice to pursue literacy.
In this decade, literacy in network protocols, cryptography, operating system, and userspace software is literacy. Lack of this is illiteracy.
Some live under the shadow of some harsh lesson learned by the family or some personal life lesson. Others didn't grow up in the West and aren't "blue pill" on the topic of government.
The East German Stasi, and that the Stasi's primary concern were "average people" with a little too much of an opinion, is still in living memory for a lot of people.
Others simply know for themselves what they are worth to themselves. Ultimately, sovereignty and dignity are their own spiritual choice. Some make that choice.
So again, it's a class issue.
_
Consider the above.
If you have friends and family who relentlessly pour data into Discord, WhatsApp, Telegram, Facebook, "the phone" and SMS, or even 501c3-Signal (sees all metadata), take some time to think about what strata they are of and what their lives are ultimately worth, by their own definition as espoused by their actions, choices, and thought (or lack thereof).
With a bird's eye view of your social graph, if you aren't already doing cicd privately for Bootstrappable Builds of your own software stack or aren't paying some elite literate team to do that for you, nor are you itching to, that bird's eye view of your social graph might also help you understand what class you are of.
_
I know what strata I am of.
Here is the reality. Some people are actually better than some other people, morally and metaphysically. If anyone derides you for acknowledging this truth, they're telling you what strata they are of (and belong in).
It's not XMPP, but I face the same issue with an app for organizing outings among friends. I've stopped asking people, friends and family alike, to install something before they have a reason to. Otherwise they install it and never use it. Instead the app generates an event link that opens in a browser and shows the place, the time and how many are going. Those who want to confirm or create an event of their own install the app. The others can still turn up. Perhaps the same logic could apply to a server: an invitation that works before any installation is required, with the app as the next step.
Just a little shout out to chatto (https://chatto.run/), which is the best slack/discord alternative i've seen so far. Not federated or crypto based, but just a solid chat platform.
https://github.com/chattocorp/chatto
>GNU Affero General Public License 3.0 or later.
It's Affero. I'd rather use anything else.
Why?